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I sat down with Joel Gandara to discuss how for men going through divorce, the first instinct might be fight. But there is a better way. Mediation, of course!

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Disclaimer

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Anything discussed in this podcast should not be construed as legal, financial, or emotional advice. It is for informational purposes only. If you are in need of such advice you MUST seek the guidance of a qualified professional where you live.

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Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

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Joel: So many guys that I know — and I guess it has to do with being around 50 years old — have gone through divorces. I’ve fortunately never been through one and I know very little about divorce. But I brought someone here, Joe Dillon, that I’m excited to have. He’s with equitablemediation.com and he helps people on either side to get through a divorce in the way that hopefully is the least amount of pain possible. Whether you’re going through a divorce, you’ve been through one, or you know someone — I think this is going to be a big help. Thanks for being here with me, Joe.

Joe: Thanks for having me, Joel. I appreciate it.

Joel: So how did you get into this? Tell us briefly what you do for people who are potentially going through it.

Joe: I’m a divorce mediator. I’m a neutral third party and I work with both sides to help them resolve all the issues they have to get a divorce. I bring options to the table, help them do the discovery forms and worksheets, and we basically help them avoid using lawyers or going through the court process. It’s a more peaceful alternative, far more cost-effective, and takes months instead of years. We try to tell people: if you’ve got kids, if you want to maintain your sanity and your financial health, you definitely don’t need to burn things to the ground. The folks we work with recognize that. They reach out to us because they don’t want to do that, and it’s very rewarding.

Joel: I’ve heard this kind of saying out there — that when a woman asks for a divorce, she’s probably been contemplating it for a couple of years, but it always catches the guy by surprise. Is that true?

Joe: One hundred percent. There’s a law firm out of the UK that did a study about two years ago. They asked everyone who came in to see them how long they’d been contemplating divorce, and when they averaged it all out, it was two years and one month. So typically, one person has been thinking about this for years. And because 70% of divorces are filed by women, that would indicate that a majority of the time it’s the women who’ve been thinking about it. It does catch the guys off guard. My wife Cheryl always teases me — she says, “You’re such a fixer. You always want to fix everything.” And guys are like, “No, but this can be saved. We don’t have to get a divorce.” Meanwhile, the wife has been thinking about this for a long time. The guys have maybe had an inkling but floated along in their own bubble. When the wife finally says, “This is it, I have to move forward,” it really catches them off guard. That’s part of the difficulty for guys in divorce — they want to fix it, they’re surprised by it, but the truth is the writing’s been on the wall for a while and they probably just haven’t recognized it.

Joel: That’s just what I’ve noticed too — maybe they weren’t very aware all this time. So what could a guy do to avoid being in this situation? Not when he comes to talk to you — what should he have been doing two or three years ago?

Joe: I’ll totally stereotype myself here — if somebody had said to me, “You should go to couples counseling, you should go to therapy,” I’d have been like, “I don’t think so.” It’s funny, if you look at our bookshelves — I’m an avid reader and so is my wife — I’ve got books about guys being taken hostage in Moscow and shooting their way out, and my wife is reading about finding your inner child and discussing it with your parents. We’re on complete opposite ends of the spectrum, and a lot of that comes down to the love languages.

For guys, the big thing is recognizing that your wife is not you. She’s different than you. She has different interests and she needs different things. In your world, just because you did X, Y, or Z — like I came home and said, “Honey, I put in a new home gym. Isn’t that great? Now we don’t have to go to the gym and we can save money.” My wife looked at me and said, “Are you implying that I need to lose weight?” And I’m thinking, all I thought was, great, we don’t have to get in the car when it’s 42 degrees below outside and we can work out.

It’s about checking in with your spouse. Asking the classic questions: how was your day, how are things going — and really just trying to stay connected. Making those efforts even when they’re small. We call them touch points. Recognizing that someone did something, saying please and thank you, a hand on the shoulder as you walk by, asking where they want to go on vacation. Going back to my home gym example — I was so proud that I bought this $5,000 Smith cage and rack, these grand gestures. My wife said she would have been happy with a set of 5-pound rubber dumbbells from Target.

We always try to go big. Wives are probably looking for something a little smaller. So my advice to guys is: pay attention to the small stuff. Make the small moments happen. Because that’s a lot of what shows up in our mediations when people are arguing, and wives are saying things like, “I never wanted any of that. I just wanted you to be home on time for dinner once a week. Take the kids to the dentist once a year.” All that little stuff. Keep an eye on it, because that’s the stuff that matters most.

Joel: I got good news, Joe — you and I would be happily married with that gym in the garage.

Joe: That’s right, man. My garage is a three-car garage and it’s a full gym, so there you go.

One thing I’ve done occasionally with my wife is ask, “What could you use more of from me? What could I help more with? What would be better for you?” It’s a little deeper than just how are you doing, but that question worded that way actually gives me something.

You mentioned books — Dr. Gary Chapman and the Five Love Languages. He’s phenomenal. I’ve actually included his lessons in my book, giving him full credit. I think every couple should take that test. It’s free, it’s online, and you find out what really moves your spouse or partner.

Joel: And I’d add one more step — not just asking where you’d like to go on vacation, but actually planning the trip. Being the one to make it happen instead of being a passenger and letting your wife do all of it. So why is it that 70% of divorces are started by women?

Joe: A lot of our clients are in their 50s. They’re either empty nesters or the kids are seniors in high school or freshmen in college. We’ve practiced a long time and we’ve seen how gender roles have shifted. Women are active in the workforce, holding leadership positions. Many of them have felt very strongly about their roles inside the home — raising the kids, maintaining everything there. And then when that role is done, I believe there’s a part of them that says, “I’ve done my time, I’ve played my part, and now it’s my time.” We’re all starting to see that.

I’ll keep this family-friendly, but as the world around us spirals out of control, a lot of us are just thinking, “I don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow, so I just want to have some fun and live my life.” That’s what’s happening. They come to a place where they say, “I’m not angry at my husband. I don’t hate him. He’s a great father, a wonderful guy. I still love him, but I just want different things in life.” We hear that all the time. And that goes back to what we were just saying — guys, if you understood what your wife wanted and were checking in on those things, the different things she wanted might become things you want too.

My wife, for example — if she had her way, she would fill our house with dogs. Volunteering at an animal shelter might not be high on my list, but she wants to be involved in that. So I’m going to show an interest and go with her, feed the animals, take them on walks. And then, of course, we came home with dogs.

Joel: How’d that work out?

Joe: It didn’t work out great. But have you ever seen people want to file for divorce and then go through the process and have regrets?

Joel: That’s actually my next question — have you ever seen regrets?

Joe: Absolutely. I just had a client recently and they took the agreement all the way to the end. That’s the beauty of mediation — you’re in the process right before you enter the court system. And we all know what the courts are like. My parents litigated their divorce when I was a teenager and it was a disaster. It took years. They spent tens of thousands of dollars — back in the ’80s, which would be hundreds of thousands today. Once you’re in that system, you’re not getting out.

But in mediation, you’re outside of that. You’re negotiating in private and confidentially. Sometimes folks get to the end of the process and look at each other and realize it’s like a high-stakes game of chicken, and somebody finally says, “What are we doing here?” I’m a neutral third party, so I can’t push them toward divorce or toward reconciliation, but I will jump in and say, “I was asking myself the same thing about you two.”

Sometimes they just need someone like me. I’ve had the good fortune, as a guy, of speaking that language — but I was also raised by my mom and grandmother, so I’ve got that side too. When I’m talking to a couple and I can say to the husband, “What I think your wife is really trying to say is…” and then vice versa, it’s almost like I speak multiple languages. And when they start hearing that, they realize they’re actually on the same page — they just weren’t listening to each other.

It’s like when I was in France with my wife. She speaks French, which is pretty cool. We were in a restaurant and there was a couple from England, and the guy was just yelling at the waitress louder and louder in English, thinking volume would somehow help her understand him. My wife just called her over and told her in French what the guy wanted. That’s kind of what happens in mediation. They’re just yelling at each other, and I say, “You two are saying the exact same thing. You’re just not listening to each other.” So I bring the temperature down. Let’s start asking some questions instead of making accusations.

Joel: You got me curious — if 70% of divorces are started by women, what happens in a woman-and-woman relationship? Is that a higher percentage?

Joe: Interesting question. Despite being a same-sex couple, people still fall into what I’d call stereotypical gender roles. There’s typically one partner who’s more nurturing and home-based, and one who’s more career-oriented and external-facing. We’re not treating people based on stereotypes — we’re just trying to figure out what their interests and goals are and how to speak to them in those terms.

What’s interesting about same-sex divorces — and we’ve worked with both men and women — is that they tend to be more high-conflict. My philosophy is that same-sex couples have fought for so long for the right to marry, and once they finally have it and it ends in divorce, there’s this sadness that falls over them. Almost a disappointment in themselves. Like, “We finally got the right to marry and we’re going to end just like everybody else.” You can see that in a way you don’t always see with heterosexual couples, where divorce is more normalized. And yes, we’ve had more female same-sex couples than male same-sex couples.

Joel: I wanted to ask this earlier — how did you get into this?

Joe: My parents litigated their divorce. So I’m that classic case — sat in the back of the courtroom. My dad was so mad at my mom that he never spoke to me or her again. The last time I saw him was in the hallway of the courthouse, and then he took off, got remarried, had another family. I eventually found out he died through a letter. That was basically my parenting from my father from my teenage years on.

My background is in finance — I have an MBA. A lot of people think you have to be a lawyer to be a mediator, and you don’t. When you think about divorce, three of the four issues are financial: alimony, child support, property division. The fourth is parenting, which doesn’t necessarily have a financial component, although kids do cost money. My background is in negotiation and finance. I have training at Harvard’s Program on Negotiation and at Northwestern. In my corporate days, I used to do high-dollar contract negotiations, financial contracts, working with teams of lawyers, salespeople, and clients — buyouts, mergers, that kind of thing.

Eventually I got downsized from a job and just didn’t want to go back into that grind. My mother-in-law, of all people — and I get along great with my mother-in-law — mentioned she had a friend who was a mediator. I spoke to her. She mediated for the Jersey City Police Department, helping both sides negotiate contracts. And I thought: kid of a litigated divorce, want to avoid that; finance background, and divorce is about money. And the rest is history. I’ve been doing it ever since.

Joel: People avoid court, reach amicable agreements, know they can still co-parent their kids. That’s the outcome.

Joe: That’s the soapbox lecture I give them. Don’t be like my dad. Don’t cut your nose off to spite your face just because you’re angry at your soon-to-be ex-wife. Don’t cut your kids out of your life. And I’ve gone through a lot as an adult trying to reconcile that — wondering what I did wrong, thinking I was an A student, an athlete. I never got that answer.

Joel: I think you know the answer — you probably did nothing. Those were adult things, and you were a kid.

Joe: I know. It’s just hard to feel that when you’re in it.

Joel: Give me some advice for the average guy whose wife just said she wants a divorce. Where do we go from here? Because that’s where I think so many guys are lost, and they often don’t even talk to friends about it.

Joe: The first thing you have to confirm is whether she’s actually made up her mind. Sometimes that’s a symptom of frustration. Think about your own friends — sometimes you’re so mad at somebody you just don’t know what to do, so you freak out on them. Your wife saying “I want a divorce” might mean, “I’m frustrated, I’m angry, I’m at my wit’s end.” So the first thing is to check in and ask: have you been thinking about this? How long? Have you spoken to someone other than your friends about this?

Because more often than not, women will go to therapy, talk to a counselor, use that time to work through their feelings and make the decision. If the answer comes back that yes, she’s done all those things, you can be pretty sure there’s not going to be a chance to change her mind. Women are good at this. They’ve planned. They’ve thought it through. They’ve made their decision. So guys, don’t try to convince or cajole. It’s not going to happen.

We call that the reluctant spouse. We have an internal name for it, and we just know who this guy is when he walks in. Here’s a little fun fact: it takes two people to be married, but only one to file for divorce. So now you have a choice about how you want to go through this process.

On our website we have a guide on the five options for divorce — do it yourself, do it online, mediate, collaborate, or litigate. And you think through which one fits your situation.

As a professional negotiator, there are two questions you can ask that are so powerful. They always start with either “how” or “what.” How can we fix this? What can I do to make it better? Notice it’s not blame or finger-pointing. This is the crossroads, the moment on the bridge: how did we get here? What can we do to change this? That may require counseling or therapy. My wife Cheryl made me read the Five Love Languages — her words, air quotes — but I’m glad she did. We discussed it at dinner. We also read the Gottman book on marriage and workshopped it together. That’s what your wife is looking for — you acknowledging there’s a problem and getting involved in the solution rather than making excuses.

So guys: check where your wife is. Is she saying she’s been thinking about this for a long time, or is she just so frustrated she doesn’t know what to do? Those are the two paths.

Joel: Communication is probably one of the main issues that leads to this.

Joe: And what’s funny is that when we start out — before kids, before we really get into it — we have shared goals. When my wife and I first got married, we asked each other everything: do we want to have a kid? Do we want to start a business together? Do we always want to live in New Jersey? Do we want to move? And then as life goes by, a lot of us just let those goals die on the vine. Your list and my list become completely different and now we don’t have anything shared to work toward.

Cheryl and I started Equitable Mediation about 18 years ago and she’s been working with me pretty much ever since. As unusual as it might be — and it can certainly be challenging at times; she’s probably listening in the other office right now — it’s also rewarding because you have a common goal, something you’re both working toward together.

Here’s another tip for guys. My doctor told me this, and I love this guy — he’s all about treating you as a whole person. He said, “Part of my job is to keep you healthy, and part of that is making sure you have a healthy marriage.” He gave me an assignment: he and his wife each take a legal pad, sit somewhere nice — at the beach, in a park, wherever — and write down their bucket list of everything they want to do. Then hand each other the pads. “I guarantee you’ll learn something about each other.”

Sure enough, I looked at my wife’s list and saw she wanted to spend more time in New England. I had no idea. She went to college in Connecticut, so she wanted to go back to Boston and Connecticut. This exercise brought that out into the open. And on my list, I’d always wanted to do a river cruise through old Europe — through Slovakia and that region. My wife said, “You hate boats.” I said, “I know, I get seasick, but this seems safer. It’s not in the ocean.” So then we each have something to talk about. Great exercise.

Joel: I love that your doctor realizes it’s not just about blood pressure — it’s about your emotional life too. So speaking of emotions, can you walk us through what a guy typically feels going through this process? I want to normalize it for guys who might be feeling alone right now.

Joe: A couple come to mind. The first is disappointment. A lot of guys define themselves by their roles. My background is pretty old school — my dad was 100% Irish, very much a provider mentality. When guys don’t fulfill that role, when their wife wants a divorce, they feel like they failed. Like they weren’t the provider, weren’t the safety keeper. And I want guys to know: you can be disappointed, but it’s not your fault. We all do the best we can. Feeling disappointed is perfectly normal.

The second is fear. I hear guys talking about parenting plans and their biggest fear is they’re not going to see their kids — that their wife is going to hold the kids away, that they’ll be sitting home alone with a frozen TV dinner on Thanksgiving. It’s okay to express that. Being an all-in parent is awesome. It’s okay to say, “I want to do everything I can to see these kids as much as possible and also to support my ex-spouse as much as possible.”

The third is anger. The anger comes through the rejection — you don’t want to be married anymore after everything I’ve done? We see this a lot with high-net-worth guys who have been on a plane three weeks out of every month, traveling internationally, not seeing their kids, coming home burnt out. They’ve got the multi-million dollar house, the cars, the vacations, and they say, “Look at all I’ve done for you. Look at all I’ve given you.” Meanwhile, the wife just wanted him home for dinner. She doesn’t care about the house. She just wanted to sit down as a family.

Then guys start to take that anger out through the process — trying to pay less child support, less alimony. And that’s a mistake. The divorce process should not be a moment to exact revenge. It’s a moment to self-reflect, because it takes two to tango. We all get into arguments with our spouses and in the moment think, “I can’t believe you did that,” and then later, when we’ve cooled off, think, “Yeah, I was kind of a jerk.”

Joel: Disappointment, fear, anger — that’s a process you see a lot of guys go through. And what do you mean by “trappings”? Why is that the word?

Joe: Because the guys feel compelled to keep working these high-pressure jobs, and what happens is — and this goes back to shared goals and communication — I would be retired right now if I had a dollar for every time a client said they can’t believe their spouse doesn’t recognize everything they’re doing for them. The guy is like, “I’m working this job. You drive that car. You wear those clothes. You’ve got the Pottery Barn furniture.” And the wife is like, “That’s great and all, but the trappings are that we’re now trapped in this lifestyle — because I didn’t want this big house, you did. I don’t need the fancy car.”

I live in Southern California and there are more Porsches on the road here than almost any other car. I drive a Subaru Crosstrek because I have a dog and I want to throw him in the back. I don’t want a fancy car. But these folks have gotten trapped in cars and houses and lifestyles, and if they could step back and realize that none of it really matters — what matters is the relationship.

When my wife and I started Equitable Mediation, we were eating nachos for dinner pretty much every night. It was a big deal when we could afford guacamole — we’d been getting by with just cheese and salsa. But we laughed, because we knew we were in this together and it was what we wanted to do. We’d watch reruns of CSI: Miami, our plate of nachos in front of us. We were so happy. We never lived beyond our means, never let our debt get away from us. Humility counts, because it’s the relationship that matters.

Joel: I know people who just don’t understand why my wife and I live the way we do. We’re in a nice house in a great neighborhood, but we drive used cars. Friends have asked me why I don’t buy whatever I want. And I’ve told them that at 50, I’ve learned none of those things made me happy. In fact, buying more things just creates pressure and stress. And then you’re chasing the next thing and the next thing. And when you buy that house that’s four times bigger, the property taxes alone — the electric bill, the cleaning bill — it all adds up.

You’re an expert on divorce and you see that these things make it worse. I hope someone hears that and can communicate it to their spouse. A simpler life, in my opinion — and clearly in yours — is a happier life. Okay, so someone is going through this, or knows someone who is. When is it too late? Can they contact you halfway through?

Joe: The best time to contact us is after you’ve made the decision to divorce, but before you’ve entered the process. That way, the gloves aren’t off. You haven’t each retained lawyers. You haven’t started throwing depositions and demands back and forth. Certainly we do have people who get on that path and then realize, “What the heck are we doing? Let’s get off this roller coaster and mediate.” But the decision to mediate really sets the tone.

Think about it this way: if you and I had plans and I showed up 15 minutes late and you said, “Hey, good to see you,” and I said, “I’m so sorry I’m late,” you’d say, “No problem, let’s get to the game.” As opposed to, “Joe, you wasted my time. You’re so disrespectful.” The tone just changed. And that tone carries. Whatever your first step is, that’s the tone you’re setting. If it starts on the right foot, the process will be amicable, you’ll come to an agreement. If you start on the wrong foot, you know the path.

So as soon as you think about divorce, think about mediation. And the beauty of mediation is that it’s non-binding until you make it so. If you get to the end and you’d feel better having a lawyer review the agreement just to make sure it’s fair, that’s totally fine. You’ve already made your agreements — you’re not walking into the lion’s den. And we have colleagues who are mediation-friendly attorneys, so when a client wants to have someone look it over, we can point them to the right people. A mediation-friendly attorney will support you and maybe say, “Here are a couple of suggestions, but overall this looks good.” That’s a very different experience from picking the wrong attorney who will flip everything over because it’s all billable hours with no end in sight.

Joel: So often in the dad’s groups I’ve seen online, everyone’s first advice is to lawyer up and go hard. And what you’re saying is that’s the first statement you make — and it sets a damaging tone.

Joe: That’s a tremendous mistake. Guys say, “I don’t want to get screwed.” Well, you’re going to get screwed if your attorney’s bills are $200,000. A litigated divorce is going to cost a hundred to $200,000. And if your wife has been working inside the home as a stay-at-home mom, where do you think that money is coming from? Not her paycheck. It’s coming from your savings account.

I’ll tell you a quick story. I was at a networking cocktail hour, standing talking to a colleague, and I overheard an attorney I knew — someone who was very much the billing type — say, loud enough for me to catch it: “I am so happy this case is going to trial. I just got the tuition bill for my youngest from Stanford and this is really going to help me.” I had to put my drink down. That is unfortunately the prevailing thought pattern in that system, because it’s set up to bill by the hour.

We do flat-fee mediation. That’s an important distinction. We have no interest in extending the process because we’re in the box with you. We’ve already told you the price. The more time I spend, the more it costs us. We have every incentive to get you finished and done well.

We get Christmas cards from former clients. I love that. They email us: “How are you guys doing? I’m getting remarried.” That’s what I want to hear. I want to hear from you socially, personally. I don’t want to be talking to you professionally a year from now.

Joel: So someone who’s convinced they need to learn more — equitablemediation.com?

Joe: Exactly. Go to the learning center — there are courses, articles, podcasts, videos. We have a YouTube channel. Our goal from the beginning was to put as much information out there as possible. When my mom was getting divorced, the only person who could answer her questions was a lawyer, and every question cost money by the hour. My mom was barely working at the time. So I decided I’m just going to put as much out there as I can. All-you-can-eat buffet — come on in, read, learn, take what you want. And then if we can help you, there’s a button to get a free consult.

If it’s just you and you’re early in the process, you’ll speak with my partner Cheryl. She’s our divorce coach and helps manage the emotional side of things. If you and your wife have both decided mediation is for you, then you’d book a meeting with me, because I have to work with both people at the same time — I’m neutral and can’t meet with just one side. We practice in California, Washington, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. The information on the site is useful nationwide, but if you live in one of those six states, we can help you directly.

Joel: Excellent. Equitablemediation.com, go to the learning center, and reach out through the website if you want to talk. Joe, thank you so much — not just for being here, but for what you do. This is a lot better than being taken to the cleaners by battling it out. You saw firsthand the effect a litigated divorce has on children. You had to live that. So what a responsible and peaceful way to go about it. Thank you very much.

Joe: Thank you, Joel. I appreciate it.

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I sat down with Bridget Stuart of The INNER Estate podcast to discuss how divorce doesn’t have to destroy your life, your future, or your identity. Divorce recovery, emotional resilience, and personal growth are possible when you approach separation with clarity, emotional intelligence, and alignment. Listen to our conversation and learn how!

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Disclaimer

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Anything discussed in this podcast should not be construed as legal, financial, or emotional advice. It is for informational purposes only. If you are in need of such advice you MUST seek the guidance of a qualified professional where you live.

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Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

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Bridget: So, what on earth is equitable mediation? That is what we’re going to dive into today. Joe Dillon, an equitable mediator — can you please enlighten us? What is equitable mediation?

Joe: Well, thanks for having me first of all. As a divorce mediator, I help couples reach mutually beneficial agreements — peacefully, amicably, out of court — so it’s a lot more efficient time-wise and cost-effective. Our whole goal is to really focus on building agreements that are, as right there in the name implies, fair and equitable for both parties, not where one side wins at the expense of the other. That’s always our focus and that’s where our name originally comes from.

Bridget: And this is something that you have been providing — and correct me if I’m wrong — to families, because it’s not just the two people splitting up. There are other people impacted. And you’ve been doing this for 18 years.

Joe: That’s a great point. People forget that yes, it’s the spouses that are getting divorced, but there’s a whole bunch of people who are impacted — obviously children number one, but even friends, other family members, neighbors, and things like that. We find that when couples get through the divorce process in a more amicable and peaceful way, they can still maintain some cordial relationship with each other, with their mutual friends, with each other’s families. Because guess what — you’re going to be seeing each other for pretty much the rest of your natural-born lives if you have children. So you might as well get through it as best you can rather than burning the entire bridge down.

Bridget: You know, Joe, I think that is commendable that you’re able to give people divorcing a different self-perception — where they understand that they can be part of something that is not as devastating as a traditional, nasty divorce. I believe that’s been rewarding for you and in turn rewarding for your family. However, here’s the big news and one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you today: what you’ve learned from your work helping divorcing couples — you’ve now flipped the script. You have written a book for people that are married, to help protect and enhance their marriages so they don’t end up needing the services of Equitable Mediation.

Joe: Yeah. Coming out later this year is the goal. The working title is Every Marriage Is a Negotiation. What I’ve learned as a negotiator — I’ve been a professional negotiator for about 30 years now, in private practice doing divorce mediation for 18 — and all the patterns I’ve seen and witnessed over and over… I sat down one day and was just banging it out in Word, actually using my headset and spitting out these scenarios. And I’m like, man, people fall into these buckets. You don’t want to discount what they’re going through or say, “I can’t believe they didn’t see that coming,” because we’re just not trained for that. But when I looked at all the clients I’ve had and all the patterns, you can bucket them into about 5 to 10 different categories. And what I really boiled it down to is the inability to effectively negotiate.

As a professional negotiator, I love reading the books — Getting to Yes, Never Split the Difference, all the classics, these treatises on business negotiations. But you don’t want to crush your enemy in a marriage. That’s not a good idea. That’s the person you’re sharing a bed with — you’re going to be watching Netflix together on the couch tonight. On the other end, you get those more therapeutic books — love languages and things like that. And while I’m a huge fan of therapy, in the practical world of negotiating what to watch, where to have dinner, where to go on vacation, those books don’t really apply either. I noticed there’s this gap. How do you manage those things practically?

What I’ve noticed is you build up what I’m calling the “bank of goodwill.” If somebody agrees with you a couple of times, you remember that, and you’re more likely to say, “I don’t want to go to Las Vegas on vacation, but my spouse let me buy that guitar and let me go on vacation with my friends — so I’m going to say yes to this, because I realize you have to give to get.” That’s really what I’m trying to teach people: a process and methodology by which they can have these conversations productively and avoid winding up in my office.

Bridget: I think that is just really fantastic — you identified the gap and you’re filling it. Is this something that will only work if both people read it?

Joe: It’ll work if both people are willing to participate. That’s the key in negotiation. Most people think of negotiation as two people, and you need two willing participants. Even if you’ve got somebody who is difficult, you can always get to what in Getting to Yes we call the position behind the position. Sometimes when people are saying no, it’s not for the reason you think it is. It’s our job as the other person in a negotiation to look behind that reason and get to it. That’s a common failing in marriages.

I was having this conversation literally with my wife Cheryl last night. She was talking about her relationship with her mom, and she said, “Every time I talk to my mom and it doesn’t go well, she’s upset and snippy with me.” And she said, “But I know it’s not really about what she’s complaining about — her neighbor cheating at cards. It’s really because she’s upset that her brother hasn’t called her.” It’s that other thing that’s not really the thing. And we are so quick to react to the first thing presented to us — “Well, who cares if they cheated at cards?” — instead of going, “Are you sure that’s really what it’s about? What’s really going on here?” It’s the willingness to listen and ask the right questions that elicits the conversation, engages the negotiation, gets to the heart of the issue, and helps you come to resolution. But it does take practice — it’s not something we’re normally trained to do. That’s what I’m hoping to give people the skills to do.

Bridget: That sounds fascinating. It also sounds like it may have applications outside of just a spousal relationship. Could this improve your communication skills overall with other key relationships?

Joe: Absolutely. When I first wrote the outline — I have a publisher and a consultant helping me — they looked at me and said, “You’re going to be better off if you can really niche down and define this audience and where do you have credibility?” It was actually a friend who was kind of looking at me, waiting for the obvious answer. Because I was writing it for the guy who wants to go on the Vegas boys trip, or the person who wants to get another dog, plus the marriage stuff. And he said, “What do you see all day? Where does your authority lie?” And I said, “Wow — marriages. I’ve seen thousands of couples and the patterns that develop.” So I’ve now started niching it down, which has created a bit of a rewrite. But I’ve got plenty of material to draw from anonymously — we want to keep confidentialities. These are archetypes, personas that fall into certain patterns. It’s easy to write about fictitious characters without naming names because I’ve had 200 clients that fit a single pattern.

Bridget: I think the niche is really going to serve you well because there’s such a need for it. Do you believe this book would be most beneficial for people in a relationship that is still fairly strong wanting to make it stronger, or could it help people who are already in tension and at odds?

Joe: I think it’s more the former. How many people do you know who go to therapy because things are going great? Nobody just sits around one day and says, “Hey, I think I’ll go to therapy — life is awesome.” So when you get to that place, we don’t want to say it’s too late, because therapy is a wonderful step and people can really benefit from it. However, what we see in a lot of relationships is when people are working on themselves, they suddenly get in alignment with their higher self — as my wife-coach Cheryl would say — and they realize their goals are no longer aligned with their spouse’s. And that’s what leads to divorce. I very rarely see people who say, “We went to counseling, it worked for a while, but our kids got older and we just mutually decided.” It’s usually that they couldn’t fix it.

We really want to emphasize that people should make an investment in the most important relationship of their life. They spend all this money on the wedding, all this time having kids, decorating, picking out the best neighborhood — spend a little time building those skills. And our ultimate goal — you heard it here first — my wife and I would love to have seminars for newlyweds, teaching them how to do this.

I’m Catholic, so you know with Catholicism you have Pre-Cana, where you sit with the priest. My wife is not Catholic, so she was like, “We have to do what? We have to talk to who?” We had a very nice priest — it was just an hour, very lovely and spiritual. But it’s not tactical. It doesn’t address what are you going to do when something hits the fan? How do you get through it as a married couple? Because guess what — that will be more of your life: when the dog throws up on the carpet, the kid touches the hot stove, and your spouse announces, “By the way, I just bought a new guitar.”

Bridget: What I hear you saying is the fan is going to turn on at some point, and something will be heading in its direction.

Joe: Correct. One hundred percent.

Bridget: If you and Cheryl create these seminars for newlyweds — what a great wedding gift that could be. And I’m pretty confident that’s not something that’s widespread or readily available out there.

Joe: Yeah. In a nonsecular way, just in the practical way. We all know from getting through life that life is hard and it’s gotten harder, and you really need practical, tactical skills. As much as people say “how romantic” — it’s not that. You just need to realize that life is a series of constant decisions and landmines you need to navigate through. As much as you might want to get swept up in the romance, more of life is less romance and more tactical, right-now things that happen.

Bridget: You mentioned that part of the goal — not just in the book but in the work that you do — is allowing people to live in alignment with their highest self, clearing their vision where they can see themselves in that light. Could you explain a little more about how you’re hoping it will come about in the book and how you’ve seen it come about in your current work?

Joe: Certainly. My wife Cheryl is my partner in Equitable Mediation. I’m the divorce mediator; she is the divorce coach. Working with me is required if you’re going through the divorce process. Working with Cheryl is purely voluntary, and there are folks she really helps move through this process. She works with clients one-on-one, confidentially — we don’t know what each other does with our respective clients. But broadly, what Cheryl tries to help people understand is that divorce is not a failure. She herself was divorced, and rather than looking at it as a failure, she helps people ask: what lessons, what learnings can I take from this? What did I learn about myself? That this relationship did not put me in alignment with who I am or what I want as a person.

Getting people to understand that — as painful and difficult as that might be when you’re in the middle of a divorce — planting that seed gives people the ability to say, “Okay, that was a wonderful period of time. I had a wonderful spouse. Maybe I raised wonderful kids. I had a nice home. I did all those things. That’s a great chapter. I’m going to close that chapter and write a new one.” It’s okay if you’ve outgrown that relationship. If you’ve moved on. Not that we want people to casually throw relationships away, but if you get to the place where you’re really thinking about who you are as a person, what your values are, what you want your life to look like — “Does this relationship serve me in doing that?” — that’s what I mean.

Our clients for the most part are people who still love each other, respect each other, care for each other. I’ve ended sessions and walked out of my office thinking, “Why are they getting divorced?” There was something they couldn’t move past, and my job is not to repair the relationship — it’s to help them end it. But it’s really getting into that space where you realize there’s something else perhaps out there, a different part of yourself calling you to go explore that.

Bridget: What do you do as the CEO of your own life and leader of yourself? What are you doing to live in alignment with your own highest self?

Joe: One of the things about what we do professionally is it’s very easy to get wrapped up in the drama. People are in a place of pain and they’re lashing out, looking for an audience. Couples will sometimes want to argue in front of you like you’re mom or dad — “See what a bad person they are? We didn’t go to my family on Thanksgiving.” Part of what I’ve said to myself is: I’m going to remain a neutral peacemaker. I’ll stand outside the box, float above it — my higher self saying I am here to serve a greater purpose. These folks might not realize that yet, but I want to remove that trauma from both themselves and their family and their circle of influence. By remaining true to myself and how I practice — what I’m willing to do or not do — that really helps me maintain professional distance while still caring as a person and a human. That’s what allows me to continue doing this for 18 years.

Knowing what you want out of a practice, what you’re willing to do, what you know is best for clients, and staying true to that — that’s really the key. And it is hard. There are people who really want to pull you in, and sometimes you just have to understand this is part of the process and stay true to yourself.

Bridget: I believe that you draw on strength from your own childhood and your own personal experiences, and that that has inspired you in Equitable Mediation and in your life passion. If you feel yourself wanting to click the end-Zoom button, do you have a mechanism to stop, reconnect, and remember why you’re so passionate about this?

Joe: One of the things I always start our mediations off with is some “rules of the road.” I share with clients upfront what mediation is and what it is not. By laying that down, I’m not scolding them or being parental or lecturing. I’m simply explaining what we went through and what this is and is not — let’s proceed as adults.

And I always go back to this: my parents litigated their divorce. I’m an only child, so I was in the crosshairs of that. It was one of the most terrible experiences — I never saw my father again after court. It was a disaster. I continue to draw on that experience, knowing that there is another way this thing can go. These folks might not know it because they’re not in it. But if I don’t help get them through this, that’s the path they’ll be on — and that will, whether they know it or not, ruin their lives and more importantly their kids’ lives. That’s what draws me back. I could have been a veterinarian, a professional baseball player, a fireman. But this is where life put me. This was the path the powers that be put me on, and I’m going to take that gift and use it.

Bridget: You’re being a steward of the gifts that were given to you. You’ve enhanced them and attached them to an emotional commitment — that if you can help even one child, that will make you feel successful.

Joe: And that’s perfect. Early on in my career — my very first year in practice — we were building some traction and I was getting a lot of clients, and I felt terrible. After sessions I’d sit in a room quietly. My wife was like, “Is everything okay? Leave me alone, you know…” And then finally she asked what was going on. I said, “Every time I finish with a client, I think: good job, Joe — another marriage you ruined.” And she said, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s reframe this. Not another marriage you ruined — that’s another family you saved.”

As soon as she said that, I thought, wow. Wisdom from the mountaintop. And that became my mantra. That ripple effect — those kids are going to have a shot at having a healthy marriage, and they’ll have a shot, and so on and so forth. Like that Buddhist stone thrown in a pond and the ripples that spread out. That’s what really drives me and keeps me going through all these clients and relationships I’ve helped peacefully end.

Bridget: On a completely random side note — from doing this podcast and having some fantastic veterinarians as guests — if you look at overall mental health and happiness, divorce attorneys are actually happier and have stronger mental health than veterinarians.

Joe: It’s actually sad that there’s a mental health crisis among veterinarians. I did not know that.

Bridget: I learned it through the beauty of the podcast. But what a brilliant moment where Cheryl was able to stop you early on and reframe it for you.

Joe: And that’s really what it is. Language is so powerful, and there are many ways to look at things. One of the things I try to impart to clients is that sometimes people ask, “Why did this happen to me?” And it’s — no. This just happened. This didn’t happen to you, this happened. Now what? That’s it.

What I unfortunately saw growing up: my mom was 45 when she got divorced and her life essentially stopped. She’s still alive, but she never dated, never had friends, never went anywhere, never went on vacation — because she was so wrapped up in her identity as a wife. When that relationship ended, that was it for her. And I think, you’re going to live a long time. You need to rebuild and go on. It was like time froze for her. I can understand the trauma — it was a nasty divorce. But you need to work through trauma. That’s where counselors and therapists are invaluable. Unprocessed grief and trauma stay with you and define you. What we try to impart is: don’t let this define you. You still have a life ahead.

Sometimes in session, I’ll even bring some levity. I have a bit of a character. When we’re doing a parenting plan, I’ll say, “Okay, we’ve done the nights, weekends, and holidays. Now — you’re remarried, and it’s Christmas. How are we going to resolve that?” And they look at me like, “What did you just say?” I go, “You guys are 37. You’re not going to get remarried?” “God, no.” I say, “Okay, no problem. Let me grab my data chart…” But you try to give people that vision down the road — “I can’t see it now, but let’s plan for it.”

Bridget: You’re planting the seed of what is highly probable, and letting them address it while they’re still in the safe environment that’s been created by Equitable Mediation.

Joe: Exactly — because now’s the time to have this conversation, not five years from now when somebody announces they’re engaged and the other person is angry about it. Let’s talk now.

Bridget: You and Cheryl co-own the company — you’re the mediation services and she’s the divorce coach. When you were talking about the trauma your mother went through, it made me think: what if there’s someone out there who is stuck post-divorce — maybe it was three years ago, they’ve tried therapy, it’s not working? Could they seek out services from the divorce coach after the fact?

Joe: Certainly. Absolutely. There’s a difference between coaching and therapy. Therapy focuses a lot on the past — what happened? Coaching doesn’t ignore that, but it focuses on where do you want to go? That’s a subtle but powerful mind shift. When we keep talking about the past, we get stuck in our victim story.

I’ll use a silly simple example: we have a dog, and every time I sit down she wants to go outside. Then when I finally get back to my bowl of cereal, she’s barking at the door to come back in. And I just start to spiral — “Why can’t I just get a break? I always do everything around here.” And then Cheryl says, “Calm yourself.” It’s 100% language. We all have that victim story. We want to make sure we think: this didn’t happen to me, this happened. Where do I want to go?

Cheryl has helped people post-divorce think about what’s possible. One of the things you run into — and I am totally guilty of this as an only child perfectionist — I will only do something if I’m already good at it. And my wife says, “How are you going to play the guitar if you don’t start out bad and practice?” I’m like, “Then I don’t want to play the guitar.” She goes, “This makes no sense.” Coaching can help you by saying your life might not look like that now, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get on the path, trip, stumble, fall, climb, get up, dust yourself off, and keep marching forward. Having that coach to plant the seed for you when you’re unable to plant it yourself — that’s really the power of coaching.

Bridget: When you think about the future — you’ve already shared the big goal of developing seminars for newlyweds, there’s probably going to be another book after this one — what else is on the horizon? As you look at living in alignment with your highest self, what else is coming?

Joe: For me, it’s teaching. I’ve enjoyed teaching in the past in a limited capacity — I’ve done some instruction as an assistant for people who teach divorce mediation trainings at Northwestern University. I used to live in Chicago, and in other mediation organizations. I really enjoy having knowledge and imparting it on another generation, not letting that knowledge die with you. We’ve amassed a lot of experience. My wife and I have built businesses together — we even had a cooking school for children as a side venture. She had an executive recruiting business before I met her. We’re very entrepreneurial by nature.

I would love to teach this next generation how to start and run their own business. Even in mediation, what gives me joy is seeing clients come to an agreement themselves. I didn’t tell them what to do, didn’t hoist a settlement on them like a judge or lawyer might — I guided them. That’s what I love. I love guiding people toward a resolution, toward a positive place. And for me, that would definitely be teaching. I’m currently in the process of applying and feeling my way through the academic world, which I’ve learned is radically different from the entrepreneurial and corporate world — it’s a very slow process. Starting now in the hopes that I’ll be teaching in a year or two.

Bridget: You’re looking to do this at the university level.

Joe: Yes. I’ve done it at university levels through training and continuing education rather than at the degree level. I have a master’s in finance and my background in entrepreneurship spans the past 20-some odd years. I run into a lot of young people who are entrepreneurial and want to start their own business, and there are so many things you can read in a book, but unless you have somebody sitting across from you explaining not only what you need to do but how you’ll need to behave and feel when, for example, your website crashes right in the middle of a major advertising campaign — there is no book on that. But I’ve been there. You need to tell people, “Okay, this is going to happen, and this is how we get through it.” Those are the things I really hope to impart. That’s where my passion and my goals will be.

Bridget: I can see where that ties in with living in alignment with your highest self, because you value impacting people and creating a path forward in a variety of ways — not just in dissolving a marriage.

Joe: Mediation itself is educational. You teach people what is a parenting plan, what is child support — you’re constantly educating people. If you’ve seen our website, you’ll know we have this whole resource center. I’ve been writing articles and publishing ebooks and courses for 17 years, always about educating the public. And truthfully, where that came from was my mom.

I remember growing up — she had questions but couldn’t really afford her lawyer. She’d been home most of my life and had just gotten a job when she got an inkling that my dad might leave. I remember her having to save money to buy an hour of the lawyer’s time. She had this pad on the kitchen counter where she’d write down her questions, so that when she had enough saved for that hour, she’d go in and go through them. I remember that and thought, well, that’s wrong. Knowledge should be free. Of course, if you want customized, tailored information you need to pay a professional — but broad general information that answers frequently asked questions? That’s something I wanted to build as a resource. We’ve had a million visitors to our blog over 18 years, and I’m just hoping that somewhere along the way somebody read something that changed the trajectory they were on, and gave them answers they couldn’t otherwise afford.

Bridget: How prevalent are familial estrangements within the immediate family in today’s society, and what kind of impact does that have on your work?

Joe: In the mediation space, it’s less common than perhaps in the litigation space. In what I’ve seen, even in cases where there has been an estrangement, it typically happens with teenage kids — they’ve got a lot of emotions pent up and they’re directing those emotions toward one parent they think is at fault. And really it becomes a function of time.

What I learned over time with my own situation is that there are really three sides to every story. I was raised as an only child with my mom, and from her worldview, my dad was the enemy and she was the saint. I don’t doubt that for a minute. But I’m certain there were also things she did that made my father say, “It’s not worth having to engage with her in order to see my son, so I’m just going to back off.” As you become an adult and you process all of this in your 20s, 30s, and 40s, you realize — huh, there was another side to this story. I just was never told it as a teenager.

So we try to explain to people: this sometimes is a function of time. It can also be a function of going to counseling with your child by yourself as the adult, understanding how you can support them. And here’s the kicker — even if you’re going through the divorce, still go to counseling. Not marriage counseling — it’s no longer about repairing the marriage. It’s how do we be good co-parents? How do we continue to thrive as what I call a “detached family unit” — total oxymoron, I know, like jumbo shrimp. But you want people to understand they’re going to need to co-parent, and therapists and counselors can give you very valuable advice on how to do that.

If you’ve got a parental alienation or estrangement situation, if mom and dad can behave as a unified front — and I know it must be terrible for the parent who’s on the short end of that — it may not be something you’ve done. It may just be the intense emotions this child is experiencing. Just continue to be there for them.

I have a friend who went through this — I won’t say his name out of confidence — but finally, after many years, the tides turned. One day his child looked at him and said, “Huh, you were right.” Talk about the long game — this was decades in the making. But it took forever, and not from any pressure on his part. This adult person had finally evolved to the place where the light bulb went on, and they came to him and said, “You know, you were right.” So there is hope for those parents who are listening.

Bridget: You mentioned the way you and Cheryl both approach the idea that divorce does not mean you’re a failure, that it is not something that happened to you — it is something that happened. Do you also empower people who are in an estrangement situation with that same message?

Joe: Absolutely. And also letting them know that — for example, when we think about parenting plans, we have to outline overnights. People get really hung up on that. They want 50% of the time. We practice in New York City and New Jersey, so anyone who’s ever lived on the East Coast knows that traffic in and out of Manhattan is terrible. When somebody who works on Wall Street and lives in Princeton, New Jersey says “I want 50% custody,” I ask: you’re going to leave your office at — if you’re lucky — 5:00. You’re not home till 7:30. You have a five-year-old sitting out front of daycare. Who’s picking that kid up?

We try to explain to parents that it’s not about the physical proximity of parenting time. It’s about being there — asking questions, showing up at the dance recital, being on the sideline at the soccer game. It can even boil down to child support. Some states like New Jersey and California use an income shares model where the number of overnights directly impacts the calculation. Don’t sweat that. That’s really you being supportive. That’s your way of helping your kids through this process, even if you’re not physically there. My hope is that one day they’ll look back and say, “Hey, I was still able to play soccer, get a cell phone, have a roof over my head and live in that house.” As an adult, they’ll look back and say, “Mom — you did that. Dad — you did that.” And you’ll have that moment. It might not be today, tomorrow, next week, or next year. But my hope is you’ll have that moment, because they will ultimately recognize the sacrifices you made.

Bridget: Well, this has been fascinating, Joe. I’m so excited about your book coming out, and the minute you mentioned the seminars for newlyweds — chef’s kiss. That is a phenomenal idea. I hope you and Cheryl continue to develop that. I would also love to extend an invitation for Cheryl to join us on the Interstate Podcast — I think that would be fantastic.

Joe: I’m sure she’d love it.

Bridget: Equitable Mediation. Joe Dillon, thank you for being our guest and sharing everything you did today.

Joe: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. It’s been a great conversation.

Bridget: And if you’re listening to this episode of the Interstate, I hope you’ll join us again. Have a great day.

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I sat down with Randi Cutler Hall on the Getting Real with Grief. podcast to discuss how divorce, if not handled properly, can lead to intergenerational trauma, and how mediation breaks that cycle.

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Disclaimer

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Anything discussed in this podcast should not be construed as legal, financial, or emotional advice. It is for informational purposes only. If you are in need of such advice you MUST seek the guidance of a qualified professional where you live.

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Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

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Getting Real with Grief: How Mediation Can Break the Cycle of Intergenerational Trauma That Divorce Can Bring

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Randi Cutler Hall: Hello, hello fellow humans. Welcome to Getting Real with Grief. This podcast is here to benefit you and to benefit humanity by bringing one of the most uncomfortable and misunderstood subjects into your everyday conversations. I’m your host, Randi Cutler Hall. Grief chose me at three years old when I experienced my first major loss. Ever since that, I’ve been obsessed with how we grieve and heal. While I’ve spent my life tending to grief, I’ve been professionally providing grief support since 2014.

Throughout this journey, I’ll be sharing my expert tips for navigating grief and loss and highlighting grief stories that have catalyzed positive change in the world. When I’m not here on this podcast with you, you can find me working with clients, hosting groups and retreats, and facilitating intentional endings through divorce ceremonies and memorials. Sometimes you can even find me right there with you, down on my knees, shedding tears, numbing or screaming. Get ready. This is the podcast you pretended not to need. Yeah, you. I see you. But actually, this is going to meet you in the realest and truest places of your heart. So let’s get into it.

On today’s episode, we are going to be talking about something challenging but really meaningful. We’re going to be talking about grieving the loss of a marriage and what to do when you have already made that decision, and then how to move into and through the divorce process in an intentional way. I’m so grateful and honored to have my guest today, Joe Dillon. He is the Co-Founder of Equitable Mediation Services and he and his wife Cheryl own and operate a divorce mediation and coaching firm that serves clients online throughout the whole United States to help make this process more intentional and less contentious and to help people get through what can be otherwise a really painful and excruciating process. Joe, thank you so much for being here. I’d love to send it over to you. Tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you’re doing in the world.

Joe Dillon: Thanks for having me, Randi. It’s an important conversation and perfectly put. My wife Cheryl and I believe in getting through the divorce process as peacefully, amicably, and cost effectively as possible, and minimizing whatever potential collateral damage there might be to relationships with your children, your friends, and your family. Something you said is so true — it’s to move through the process in an intentional way. Societally, we are taught that divorce has to be a conflict. It has to be a disaster. We need to get a lawyer and fight it out and fight for what we’re entitled to.

We’ve been practicing now coming up on 18 years, and I’ve been mediating for 20. We are proof day in and day out that it does not have to be that way. The feedback from our clients certainly reinforces that. Folks who have come to us over the years have said the same thing over and over — “I spoke to my friend and they got through this process so wonderfully and they’re so grateful to you, and we want to make sure we do the same thing.” That’s the reward — to really hear that people are making that conscious choice to move through the process in this intentional way. And then it allows them to begin that healing process that’s necessary, the grieving process, the loss of that marriage. That’s what I hope we can spend some time exploring today.

Randi: I’m just hearing you name the possibility, the outcome — the banking of the evidence that it doesn’t have to be so tragic and ugly and traumatic and harmful. When a lot of people think about the divorce process, they think about the worst of people coming out. You really see the ugly in somebody. It’s really beautiful and meaningful to think about you and your wife and your firm really prioritizing people having a different kind of experience, so that they can get to the grieving — because this is the severing of the marriage and the death, if you will, of the marriage. I hear you saying let’s do that civilly and with some dignity and let’s try to have the most positive experience you can, so that then you can grieve the relationship and move forward with your life. Absolutely important, especially with such a high divorce rate these days.

Joe: Something you said is spot on — if you get through the process the way we want you to, then you can grieve the loss of the marriage. If you don’t, you have to grieve the divorce process, and that can take years. And then once you’re done with that, you have to grieve the loss of the marriage, and that can take years too. Suddenly 5 to 10 years go by and you’re still wrapped up in this and not moving through it. Everyone moves through grief at their own pace, and I’m not saying they should feel compelled to hurry. But we want to focus on the things that matter — the relationship, the loss of that, the introspection that comes or should come with that — so that you can move forward. Everyone deserves happiness and you can move forward and find that happiness again. But if you’re mad about the ruling or the statute or the thing from the judge, that’s not important. The loss of the relationship is what we really need to be focused on, not some procedural element that happened in a courtroom. Unfortunately, in contentious divorces, that becomes the primary focus of grieving rather than the marriage itself.

Randi: What a different lens this is coming from. I’m imagining the amount of time you get back. In some ways it feels like you’re giving people their life back — giving people an opportunity for a fresh start where they’re not needing to lick their wounds for such a long time. They can just recognize this wasn’t working for whatever reason, find a way to end as amicably as possible, and then move forward. I’m so grateful to you for wanting to do this work and making this your life’s work. How did you get into this? What’s your personal connection with grief and with some of this work?

Joe: My parents litigated their divorce. I am the poster child of what not to do. I watched the certified letters arrive from each attorney. I sat in the lobby of my mom’s attorney’s office. I sat in the back of a courtroom and watched my parents screaming and yelling at each other. There was a moment in the process where my parents were talking about who was going to pay for me to go to college. I was a good student and I wanted to go to a private university, which was far more expensive than the public universities. At the time, my dad was probably making 10 times more than my mom. She had just gone back to work — she had been working inside the home to raise me. He wanted to share the college costs equally. My mom said, “You make 10 times more than I do. How is that going to work?” So they went to court to fight over it. He wanted a 50/50 split.

I’m sitting in the back of the courtroom as a teenager. My mom made me put on a jacket and a tie and get a haircut. I’m watching them screaming and yelling and going back and forth. My mom’s lawyer argued that my father had to pay a little more. The judge said 60/40. Then my dad started yelling at the judge — literally yelling at the judge. The judge banged the gavel and said, “OK, now it’s 70/30.” Then my dad got up and was about to approach the bench and his lawyer had to grab him. The bailiff came over and the judge said, “Would you like to try for 80/20?” They locked my father back down in his chair. This is me at 15 or 16 years old witnessing this.

Then everybody went out into the hallway, and there I was standing with my mom. My father came over — I hadn’t seen him since he had moved out two years prior. I had had no contact with him. My mom said, “This is your son. Don’t you want him? He’s an A student.” He grumbled something and walked away. That was the last time I ever saw or heard from him. I got a letter about 35 years later from his lawyer that he had died. That was it.

I never had the chance as a kid to go through that process and grieve my parents’ divorce. It took me a good 20 to 25 years to really process it because it was this stunted emotional thing that happened that I had no context for. My mom didn’t send me to therapy. I was an only child. I had nobody to talk to. As I realized what was happening and what it meant to be a child of divorce, and as I moved into what I do now professionally, it was such a natural transition to say: in a nutshell, I want to help families avoid what happened to me.

I get to work with client couples every day and it’s very rewarding. We talk about intention, but we also need to talk about authenticity. If you’re going to give people messages like I need to give them, you need to come from an authentic place. I can look people straight in the eye and say, “Listen, I have literally sat in the back of a courtroom and watched my parents argue. Trust me when I tell you, you do not want that for your kids. It will mess them up for a very long time.”

People can grumble at each other, but I can usually get them to a place where they recognize that this is not the way to do this. And then by doing that, we can get through the process far more amicably. We can focus on being good co-parents. And then, as we talked about, you can really focus your efforts on grieving the loss of that relationship — not grieving the process. My mom never got through the trauma of the process, let alone being able to grieve the marriage. She never had many friends. She never dated again. She was 45 when she got divorced. I’m older than that now and I still think I’m young. I feel like it was a life robbed from her — she never got to go through the healing process that she undoubtedly needed. That’s my story as to how I got here. It’s a strange one, but true.

Randi: Thank you for trusting me and trusting our audience and really sharing. I can see how it fuels you. I can see what’s at stake from a very personal place, and that when you’re looking at your clients in the eyes it comes from a really authentic place. That’s the thing that can really get through to people — when people feel like you understand, like you’re showcasing why it’s so important. It feels bittersweet to hear that you are sort of the evidence to bank of “don’t do this, because this is all the ways it can cause harm to yourself, to your life, to your children, to your legacy, to your finances, to your security.” But I’m also recognizing the beauty that you’ve made of your life given these circumstances — while also honoring that you’ve had to do a lot of this from an empty cup and without the modeling of what it could look like if it went well. A teenager sitting in the back of the courtroom, enduring this, witnessing the ugly come out in people — witnessing people fighting in survival mode and having parts of their life really robbed from them when it could have been so different. What a missed opportunity.

Joe: That’s an important lesson for everyone — you can let your pain define you or you can let it fuel you. When I first started as a mediator, I would finish a session and Cheryl would ask how it went — we keep strict confidentiality between us; what clients talk to her about is emotional support, what they talk to me about is financial and tactical. I would go, “Good job, Joe, you just helped end another marriage.” She looked at me and told me something very powerful that stuck with me. She said, “Don’t look at it that way. You’re not destroying their marriage. They came to you voluntarily. Their marriage was over before they came to you. You’re helping them avoid what happened to you. You’re helping them move on with their lives in a more intentional and constructive way.”

As soon as I shifted that perspective — from destroying a marriage to helping prevent intergenerational trauma — so that these couples could model good behavior, everything changed. My dad disappeared. My mom was a train wreck. She did the best she could and I’m grateful to her for everything she did. But it wasn’t like I had a mom who was fully present, because she was dealing with her own stuff. I didn’t have siblings to work through it. I didn’t have a counselor or therapist. You’re sitting there with your grief and your pain and you’re not really sure what to do with it. As a teenager, you’re already filled with all kinds of emotions.

As I think about it now, I’m not a particularly religious person but I am a spiritual person. I think about the Buddhist mantra where you throw a stone into a pond and it creates ripples. I think of myself as the stone being thrown into the pond. My hope is that these ripples will mean that this family can spend holidays together, that those parents can be at the baby showers together, at the weddings and the graduations, that they can go see the grandkids. All of a sudden you’ve got this ripple effect where those kids have seen a model of good co-parenting, so they’re less likely to divorce, and if they do, they’ll behave differently. That’s what drives me. When people really sit down and think about it that way — that what you’re doing right now is going to impact people who aren’t even born yet — that’s a pretty big message, but it’s an important one to share.

Randi: Absolutely. Something I’m really appreciating about what you’re talking about is that people are coming in at a moment that has the potential to be a chapter in the story, and you’re helping them write that chapter in a way that ideally doesn’t let the rest of the story be consumed by it. I see the lens you’re coming at this with — OK, here you are in this moment, and this moment is hard. Yes, you have to divide the stuff and figure out the childcare arrangements and the financial piece and all of the logistics. But I hear you also offering the big picture. What we’re talking about is not just this moment when our kids are six and eight. It’s the moment where our kids are going to graduate, going to have a wedding, going to want us to walk them down the aisle, going to want us to be at their baby shower and be there for all the life milestones. It’s really hitting me — the way you are giving people a way to have there be so much more to the story than just that one chapter they’re writing during a divorce.

Joe: Absolutely. When I graduated high school, this is another story that really reinforces the point. I went to a small high school with a small auditorium. On the day of our graduation, there was rain in the forecast. The school said if it rained, everyone would get only 2 tickets — just mom and dad — because that’s all we could fit in the auditorium. If it didn’t rain, bring whoever you want because it would be on the football field. The threat of rain was coming. We got 2 tickets. My mom had one of them and wanted to give the other to my father. He was not going to come unless he could bring his girlfriend. My mom tried to explain it wasn’t her being difficult — the school had literally given her two tickets and she was taking one of them as mom and he could have the other. He refused to come. The bitter irony was that we actually had the graduation outside. The weather did hold, but he still didn’t come.

I remember just being there, looking around. My aunt and uncle came, all my cousins were there — it was great. But as a kid, you still look up in the stands looking for your parents. He chose not to come. And that’s part of that whole short-sightedness — you don’t realize that as the adult, your behavior is going to imprint a moment on your kid that 40 years later they still remember, and not in a pleasant way. That’s what we try to share with folks. It’s here, it’s now, it’s raw, it’s real, it stinks. But this too shall pass if you work on it and help usher it forward.

Randi: If you want it — at the end of the day, it’s a choice. Sometimes people will say, who are your favorite clients to work with? And it’s the clients that want to work, that want to make the change, that are invested. At the end of the day, you can give people all the tools, but if people want to choose it, you have this path and these resources for people who want to make that choice and move it forward well.

Joe: You’ve got to be engaged. I can’t do the work. We’re like a personal trainer. I can show you how to use the machines. I can help you lace up your sneakers. I can stand next to you. But I can’t lift the weights. You have to lift the weights.

Randi: Totally. I’m also really touched professionally, hearing this and understanding the grief process in the ways that I do. I also lived through a really contentious custody battle. That was a lot of my early life. I’m just really touched — what I would have given to have had this process, to have had these options for the different parties involved in my life. Many of my listeners know my story — my parents died when I was three years old and the question became, where are these kids going to go? It was my maternal grandparents and it was my dad’s brother and sister-in-law, my aunt and uncle. There was a very contentious custody battle trying to identify what’s in the best interests of the kids, what’s in the best interests of the adults, who is going to uphold the values of these parents the most. It was a really hard and horrific period of time. I was very young, so I wasn’t in courtrooms in the same way, but the ways it affected and fractured my family — it cost my grandparents their life savings. It ended up being a very unnecessarily contentious process that then took an entire family away from grieving my parents and grieving this whole situation. We could have come together in a different way. In a deeply personal way, I’m really moved by what you’re describing because I can see how from the earliest parts of my life, this could have redefined what my family looked like and how we showed up for each other.

Joe: People don’t realize that kids are sponges. If you don’t believe that, say a swear word in front of a 2-year-old and I promise you within an hour that kid will be running through your living room yelling it. We don’t even realize that kids are listening. They’re on all the time.

Randi: And learning what it looks like to relate, what conflict resolution looks like, what it looks like when you’re upset and need something and how to get your needs met. There’s a lot being modeled in those moments.

Joe: Something you said is very important to mention — “what’s in the best interests of the children.” As a professional negotiator, that’s where my training comes in. My training at Harvard, for example, is in professional negotiation. When you talk about negotiation, we have two schools of thought — interest-based and positional. Positional is what most people engage in. Yes or no, right. If I win, you lose. If we go to this restaurant, you’re going to hate it. Interest-based is about finding the shared ground, finding the common interest, finding what’s best for everyone involved.

Unfortunately, as a species — limited resources, survival of the fittest, social Darwinism — whoever’s biggest and strongest takes what they need. That’s part of what we’re all DNA-programmed to do. And unfortunately, that positional stuff shows up in our relationships, in our divorces, in all the places where if it didn’t, we’d be far better off. When you think about asking for something or talking through something, whatever it is in your life, try to think win-win. Try to think, what outcome is going to benefit everybody here? That’s also going to help with reducing conflict. Interest-based rather than positional-based — that’s an important message to remember.

Randi: That’s really, really an important piece. And something else you said earlier was that you can either be defined by the pain or help it move you forward, turn it into something meaningful. In some ways, to get a little meta, that’s sort of the purpose of this whole podcast. I see you in the motif of the wounded healer — not in a cheesy sense, but in the sense of really taking something, going through something, and not wanting other people to suffer the way you suffered. Coming to be able to help and contribute in the world from the pain that you know, letting that be the fuel that serves you. I’m really seeing the ways your story has you — you decided to alchemize the pain, you decided not to let it define you, and you decided to make it into something that is serving the people in the moment you’re with, but also many, many generations forward and the fabric of how we relate as a society.

Joe: It’s really rewarding. We’ll hear from former clients who are getting remarried, or we’ll get Christmas cards from them. We’ve even met up with some of them — who wants to meet with their divorce mediator and coach? But we’ve actually built nice working relationships with people. Long after their divorce is over, they reach out and say, “I know you guys live about an hour from us. Would you ever want to meet for coffee?” Of course, why not? That just goes to show you the power of going through the process in an intentional manner and being able to grieve it and move forward.

And now as the mediator, you’re sometimes looking at a former client with their new partner and you need a cover story — did we work together? Did we used to shop at the same Costco? And then they’ll say, “He knows you were my divorce mediator.” And I go, thank God. You’ve got to be quick on your feet.

Randi: I know that as a therapist. I don’t want to out you. I usually negotiate with clients ahead of time about what to do if they see me out in the world.

Joe: Standing next to each other at the produce section trying to pick out apples — yeah, that’s awkward.

Randi: Can we get into some of the nitty gritty? You have so much knowledge about this process and how to help it go well. What is it that you want listeners to know, especially if they are at the point where they’ve made the decision to end their marriage and are now moving into the beginning or middle of the process?

Joe: The first thing I’d always say is get educated. There are a lot of resources out there. I remember as a kid sitting in the lobby of my mom’s lawyer’s office. Part of it would always be that she had to save up enough money to be able to go pay for an hour of his time. She would come in with a litany of questions because she wasn’t really working full time and she didn’t have information. She was getting information from unreliable sources — friends and family filling her head with all kinds of stuff about what you’re entitled to and how things should work. They’re not lawyers. They’re family. They defend you and protect you.

When we first started, I decided I was going to blog and provide information freely. My goal was to say, information should be free and freely available. If I’ve got knowledge as a professional, I’ll write an article about it. Go read it. I hope you find it helpful. If we can help you, let us know. That has worked for us over the past 18 years. Over a million people have visited our website. You think to yourself, who am I? Just a kid whose parents had a terrible divorce who chose to do something about it. But the feedback has been that the resources have been invaluable. So start at our website, equitablemediation.com. We write content that applies nationwide, and we also have content specific to the states we focus on. Go read and get educated on the process. If you can dispel some of the myths, that will help you as you enter the process. For example, the common myth that mothers get 100% of child custody — that’s still out there and fathers assume they’ll never see their kids. That’s not how this works. I’d guess 80% of our clients have 50/50 parenting plans. When we first started, it was 10%. We’ve tracked this over the years. Yet that myth still persists.

The next thing is to learn what your options are. I want everybody to mediate, but not everyone can. It takes a certain level of emotional maturity and the ability to negotiate on your own behalf. For example, if someone is suffering from substance abuse or has a mental condition that would preclude them from negotiating in their own best interest, that’s where we want them to have an advocate — that’s where they would need a lawyer. Or if someone’s not fully disclosing assets, if there’s concern about financial impropriety, that’s also not mediation-friendly. On our blog, in the Learning Center, we have a resource on the five options for divorce. It asks you a bunch of questions, gives you a quiz, and helps you identify which process is right for you.

Then once you’ve done that, you really need to go in with an understanding of what it is you want and what you’re willing to give. When people enter these negotiations, they always come in focused on what they deserve, what they’re entitled to, letting their anger fuel them. At the end of the day, I can promise you — I’ve seen thousands of these things — one person doesn’t get everything and one person doesn’t walk away with nothing. You have to give to get. That’s what we were talking about with interest-based negotiation. It doesn’t necessarily have to be dollar-for-dollar 50/50. If I have an interest in keeping the house and you’re closer to retirement and want to keep the 401K even though it’s worth more — I’ll make that trade. So if you’re educated, you’ve chosen your divorce process, and you’re willing to give to get, that’s going to get you really far. It’s going to help you move through the process in a much more expeditious and cost-effective fashion.

I jokingly say to my clients: you’ll know I did my job if at the end of our mediation, both of you look at me and go, “You were OK.” When both of you are slightly annoyed with me, I’ve done an excellent job — because that means I forced you to think about things. I challenged you. I questioned you. I made you give things to get things. They kind of laugh and say, “You know what, that’s about right.” I’m like, look, I’m a nice guy, but I have a very specific role here. We could be friends later, five years down the road. And then when they smile and laugh about it, I say, now the healing begins. Now the hard work begins. I’ve helped you do all the paperwork and the technical stuff. But now this is really where you need to dig in and say, let me work on myself so I can see what role I played in this relationship and its outcome so I don’t repeat it moving forward — and so I can show up as the best version of me for my friends, my family, my kids, my co-workers.

That’s really where we try to get folks to. It’s kind of a ritual to acknowledge that this marriage was sacred and this was a meaningful period of life. Not all of it perhaps, but there’s always going to be something — even in marriages that weren’t 25 years long, even if they were five years long — happy moments you can reflect on. That’s what’s got to fuel you to say, it wasn’t all bad. These are the things I enjoyed. It’s now over, and it’s time for us to move forward.

Randi: I heard the importance of getting educated and learning what your options are. Then being able to choose what you want and what you’re willing to give up — what are my hard lines, what are the places where there’s wiggle room? Then having clarity about that opens you up for the final piece — which feels so foreign, honestly — being able to move forward and look for your own role in how things unfolded so you don’t repeat it in future relationships. That piece feels so absent from today’s divorce dialogue. But the whole process is about leaving not so contentiously that you can actually do the grieving work of the relationship and the personal work to help set future relationships up for success.

Joe: Absolutely. As we say, you move into, through, and past the divorce process. Those are the three steps, and we don’t want to discount any of them. We don’t want to make it sound like, “Oh, I’m past it, I’m over it.” Being past it just means you’re past the paperwork, the negotiation, the child support discussions. Now you’re standing on the other side, coming outside, looking around going — now what? That’s where the work begins. That’s where the smart folks understand it’s a good idea to take a pause and not jump into a relationship right away. It’s a good idea to examine what happened and what role you played in it. As much as we like to point the finger, it takes two to tango. This thing didn’t go sideways just because of one person — well, maybe it did, but it’s hard to really say there’s just one person that caused a marriage to end unless something is completely egregious. In mediation, we don’t see a lot of that, because people tend to be self-selecting and want to work together.

We’ve had cases where we’ve been unable to get people to agreement, and it hasn’t been because of our process or our work. It’s just been something so extreme that even if I had known it in advance, I would have said, mediation is not going to work for you. This is clearly litigation territory — forensic accounting, dissipation of assets — things that are outside the normal purview of a functional divorce. And that sounds like a contradiction — what does a functional divorce mean? But the truth is you can have a functional divorce. The relationship may not have been great, but we can move through this as adults. That’s the takeaway.

Randi: And I hear that comes from a commitment to wanting it to be amicable. My husband and I, when we first started dating and then got married, made a commitment to each other — we’re 14 years in and we need to remind ourselves of it often — to keep it awesome. What do we have to do to keep it awesome? And the commitment was, how do we keep making it feel good for each other? That being the priority and the value. If we want to have an awesome relationship, what changes do I need to make and what changes do you need to make to keep it awesome? I hear a shift to your frame being — how do we keep this not contentious? How do we come out the other side being able to bear each other? How do we come out the other side willing to prioritize being a part of our children’s lives going forward? The people who benefit from this most are the ones willing to commit to having a good process and having it lead somewhere amicable.

Joe: You don’t want it to destroy you. You have to live your life. Especially when kids are involved — these children need you. They need you focused and there. Kids can appear to be resilient, but they do need their parents. Anyone listening with children knows that kids are amazing at finding the fissure in a relationship. If they ask mom and don’t get the answer they like, and dad gives them the answer they want, they’re going to dad every time — or they’re going to pit mom and dad against each other. Those kids, they aren’t not clever.

As parents, you need to be united. Now think about a divorce situation. You’ve established two separate households and you’re co-parenting. Kids are going back and forth. What about screen time? Diet? Exercise? Maybe one parent smokes and the other doesn’t. These are all things you never gave second thought to before, but they become magnified and important when you’re trying to have a unified front.

Randi: Those are hard enough when you’re married.

Joe: Exactly. And now if you go through a contentious divorce, you’re going to feed the kids microwave pizzas just to spite your ex-spouse. You’re harming your kids. We want to get you through that process so you can put that away and go, OK, what do we need to do to raise these awesome kids?

Randi: And when there’s kids involved, whether you like each other or not, you’re in each other’s lives for as long as your kid’s life — and hopefully that’s longer than your own life. So you’re still signing up for a forever deal. It’s just — do you want to like the person you have to collaborate with, or not?

Joe: One of my favorite stories that I hope resonates with folks — my cousin went through a rough divorce. It wasn’t exactly the greatest divorce she and her ex-husband had. But they had one son, and the father never blinked twice about getting him whatever he needed. I think he realized as his son moved into his teenage years that he needed his support. Whether he was fully conscious of it or not, he made a choice. My cousin got remarried, and he and her new husband became the sports coaches for the son together. I remember going to one of my cousin’s games and sitting up in the bleachers. The new husband had his arm around the ex-husband and they were both cheering for the kid. I’m looking at this going, this is awesome. This is exactly what we’re talking about.

Put that in a Hallmark card — jumping up and down and high-fiving each other because they recognize that regardless of how I feel about you, it’s all about this kid who’s on the field. We want him to succeed and we want to support him. It was a pretty awesome moment. You couldn’t write a better storybook ending. That’s what we want to share with folks. When you mediate, you can have those moments. If you’re litigating, the new husband is going to hate the ex-husband because of everything that transpired. That kid just wanted to run across the field and do his thing and have people cheering for him. That’s all he cared about at 12 years old. He wasn’t caring about courtrooms and battles and child support.

Randi: Yeah, really reinforcing — let’s focus on what really matters, the bigger picture. My hope is that listeners who are in this process hear that that’s possible. Even just as an example — I want to have the two dads on the sideline cheering. You can have that too.

Joe: You can. It’s a choice. It’s a conscious, intentional choice.

Randi: That’s really beautiful. I want to move into a different realm — the realm of grief. One of the things I do with clients who are navigating divorce and really wanting to honor the ending of a relationship — they’ve made the decision, sold their house, gone through the process, the divorce is final — is something I call a divorce ceremony. I also do this for relationship endings without marriage. We do some of what you shared — a looking back, what I learned in this relationship, who did I become, what am I grateful for to this person, who am I on the other side, what wishes do I have for this person as they move forward. We do a whole intentional honoring of the relationship in service of creating closure. It’s almost like the funeral of the relationship — the death and then the funeral after all the logistics. Are there other ways you see couples honoring endings, or ways you and your business help people bring closure?

Joe: I think people underestimate that we all go through the grieving process, and the funeral is a great example. Why do we have funerals? It’s because we need that sense of community. We need to talk about that person. We need that closure, that finality. As we walk out of the cemetery, it helps us close the lid on it.

One thing I like to do with clients is have a moment of reflection where I remind them of what they’ve successfully accomplished. 98% of our clients are able to come to an agreement through mediation with us — so essentially all of our clients. I say to them, let’s take a moment and reflect on what you did. You managed to get a divorce using mediation. You managed to sit together — we do it virtually via Zoom — and go through what I would argue is the single most difficult negotiation of your life. You did it willingly. And you came to agreement. Look at the impossibly difficult thing you did.

And it’s great when kids are involved, because you can use the example: so now when Olivia comes home from high school and she’s decided to shave half her head, dye the other half purple, and has a nose ring — and you flip your lid and call the other parent — just remember, you were able to get through your divorce. You can get through that too. They laugh and it’s a moment of levity, but it’s real. I say, look at the hard work you did. You should be proud of yourself. I know it wasn’t easy. I appreciate you letting us guide you through this. Remember this moment — because I promise you there are going to be bumps in the road. Arguments about new spouses, child support, the kid coming home with the shaved head. Think about the work you did here and how you got through this extremely difficult thing, and that will serve you well.

It’s a choice. You can choose to react or you can choose to turn toward each other. Your kids are going to need you to turn toward each other as parents, despite your marital status.

Randi: I love that. There’s a therapy term called externalizing the problem — taking the problem and placing it outside of the two people rather than between them, so they can be on the same team both looking at the problem together. I see you doing that, bringing it back home to say, look at this intense negotiation you just lived through together. It feels like a last moment of pointing out how they were a team.

Joe: That’s part of the idea — to remind them that despite getting a divorce, you can still do great things together and work together as a team. That’s especially important in co-parenting.

Randi: And taxes are still going to come up that year. Things come up. And that person, in some ways, will always be a part of your story and identity.

Joe: Absolutely. You want to be able to talk about them fondly. Say you’re dating now and you go on a first date with someone and all you’re doing is talking about how terrible your ex is — the other person is going to think you obviously haven’t let this go, you obviously haven’t processed what happened. Whereas if you get on that first date and say, “Yeah, I ended this relationship with a really nice person, it just didn’t work out, but I’m grateful for the time I had with them and what they taught me” — the other person is far more likely to see that as real maturity.

As we move through these processes, if we want to get remarried or enter a new relationship, we have to make ourselves open to that. And grieving what we’ve lost is one very powerful way to do that. I was engaged before I got married. I explained to Cheryl — I said I got a box, I put those things in it, I looked through it, I picked them up and looked at them, and then I put a lid on the box. I processed it. I keep it handy to remind myself of what could or couldn’t be, or what I might have done differently. But I have put a lid on it. I sorted through the items, I picked them up, I looked at them, I processed them, and now I’m ready to move forward. I’m a visual guy.

Randi: What I appreciate about that metaphor is you’re not tucking it away and you’re not burning it. What you’re doing is containing it. It’s something you’re not afraid to look at, something that doesn’t unravel you if you do. But it’s there. It’s contained. It had its moment. It had its chapter. And now we’re on to a new chapter.

Joe: Exactly. 100%.

Randi: Really beautiful. I’m just really heartwarmed by the whole scope of this conversation. As we’re closing out, is there anything more you want our listeners to know, and anything you want them to know about your practice?

Joe: If you’re entering the divorce process, there’s often a lot of reflection on failure. “What did I do? I can’t believe this is happening. Am I a failure?” One very powerful thing to remember — Cheryl reminds me of this, and we all have friends who do this — is the phrase, “I can’t believe this is happening to me.” It’s not happening to you. It’s happening because divorce happens. It’s also happening to your spouse, to your kids, to your friends, to your family. I’d encourage folks who are going through or thinking about divorce to make that subtle mind shift from “why is this happening to me?” — which is victim mode — to “this is happening. How can I move through this process the best way I can so I can grieve this loss and move forward?” That is the more constructive dialogue.

I know it’s hard and I’m not saying it’s going to be easy. But I want people to listen to that shift — from victim mindset to “I can do this” mindset. I say to clients, I know you’re not happy to be here, and I’m totally OK with that. We’re not planning a vacation. I’m not a travel agent. But I appreciate you being here, because you’re choosing to be here and choosing to move forward. If you’re facing a divorce — this isn’t happening to you. It’s perfectly normal. Lots of people do this. People grow, people change, people evolve. Sometimes people evolve and they’re not tethered together and they just sort of fade apart. Nobody did anything wrong. It’s part of the process. It’s now your job to acknowledge it, honor it, recognize it, heal, and move forward.

Randi: I love that so much. I’ve heard a different version of that phrase — “it’s not happening to you, it’s happening for you.” That can turn it toward seeing the opportunity in it. But even just the refocusing — it’s happening, and taking the personalized “taking it personally” out of it, just acknowledging this is happening, it’s happening to all of us involved. I can see how that subtle language shift moves you out of victim mode and out of seeing only your own experience without seeing the ripple effects on the whole system. Thank you for that reminder.

Joe: It helps people get through. As far as us — if anybody is in need of information or thinking about the divorce process, our website is definitely the best place: equitablemediation.com. There is a Learning Center where you’ll find all kinds of articles, ebooks, videos, and podcasts.

We practice specifically in six states — Washington, California, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Those are places we’re very comfortable with how divorce works. We have practiced in other states as well, so if you’re not in one of those six, you can still reach out. We might be able to help if it’s somewhere we’re familiar with. You can also schedule a call with Cheryl — Cheryl coaches nationwide. No matter where you’re listening from, if you’re going through the divorce process, I think the combination of therapy and coaching is such a powerful combination. It’s two sides of the same coin — it’s unpacking and moving forward. Coaching can be very tactical, which is what’s nice about it. Cheryl’s background is as a certified divorce coach, with a background in psychology as well. In her previous career she was an executive recruiter. A lot of times people going through divorce need to reinvent their careers, and she can help them in that very tactical way. It’s a sense of self — I need to establish my own identity.

Randi: How do I rebuild my whole life?

Joe: Exactly. She works with clients throughout the US and has even worked with clients in other countries. We always say — if we can help, we would love to. And if we can’t help, we can certainly direct you to someone who can. As long as you’re willing to be engaged in the process, you can certainly mediate your divorce.

Randi: Joe, I’m so touched. I hear your commitment and your passion for providing resources and getting people educated — not just for the people who are your clients, but for the world, for expanding people’s ideas of what this process can look like. I really feel the sincerity and the heart in what you’re doing, your own personal experience feeding into it and seeing all of the clients you’ve been able to support through this process. Thank you so, so much for the work that you’re doing.

Joe: Thank you for having me, Randi. I appreciate the opportunity to share. I hope someone out there finds this in their moment of darkness and it’s that little candlelight that says — OK, there’s a way through.

Randi: This is your sign. If you were looking for a sign, this is it.

Joe: This is it. We’re here for you when you’re ready.

Randi: Thank you so much. What a gift to have you. What a beautiful conversation.

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In this conversation, host Sol Kennedy and I discuss the importance of understanding children’s perspectives during parental conflicts, the need for effective communication between parents, the role of mediation as a peaceful alternative to litigation, and I offer techniques for dealing with difficult personalities, particularly in high-conflict situations.

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Disclaimer

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Anything discussed in this podcast should not be construed as legal, financial, or emotional advice. It is for informational purposes only. If you are in need of such advice you MUST seek the guidance of a qualified professional where you live.

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Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

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Navigating the Holiday Rush: A Mediator’s Perspective Co-parenting Beyond Conflict with Sol Kennedy

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Sol: Welcome back to Co-parenting Beyond Conflict. I’m your host, Sol Kennedy, founder of the Best Interest Co-parenting app. Today’s episode is a powerful reminder of what’s truly at stake when conflict takes over in divorce. My guest, Joe Dillon, is a divorce mediator with decades of experience. As a child of his own parents’ divorce, he only ever saw his father while in a courtroom. We talk about fear, money, control, and the quiet ways that kids carry adult conflict, along with practical tools for getting on the same page even in high-conflict situations. Let’s dive in.

Hi Joe, welcome. How are you doing today?

Joe: Thanks for having me, Sol. I appreciate it.

Sol: It’s so great to have you on the podcast. You describe yourself as a peacemaker — not just professionally, but personally. Before we get into mediation and the services you provide, I’d love to understand more about what that means to you. What is a peacemaker, and how did you get into this work?

Joe: I’ve been doing this 28 years now — negotiation and mediation. As you probably know, my parents litigated their divorce. It was really high conflict, with all the collateral damage that everybody says won’t happen to them. I sat in the back of the courtroom, never talked to my father again. But from that experience, what I took away is that people who get entrenched in their positions are truly convinced they’re right. There’s nothing you can do if you’re just going back at them with your opinion or trying to poke holes in theirs. That just goes back and forth and leads to more conflict. As a peacemaker, I’m always trying to see all sides. By asking questions and trying to understand what their view of reality is — whether it’s a conflict with a next-door neighbor, something political, or a homeowners association dispute — if we take a step back and really listen, we find we have a lot more in common than we don’t. We really are trying to achieve the same goal, just coming at it from different directions. That’s what it means to me — to be the person in the middle who says, “Let’s tick down a notch, hear everybody out, understand why they feel that way, and then move toward resolution.” That’s constantly my filter.

Sol: How much would you say your choice of profession was dictated by those early life experiences?

Joe: Nobody on the playground is thinking, “I want to be a divorce mediator.” You want to be a fireman, an astronaut, a cowboy. This is really a profession I was unwittingly led to. My background is negotiation and finance. I had a lot of corporate experience in that space. When I struck out on my own, this became a natural extension. And here we are nearly 18 years later, having formed Equitable Mediation in 2008. It really just feels like a natural extension of who I am, especially as a child of high-conflict divorce.

Sol: Something struck me — you mentioned that you were only seeing your father in court. Can you tell me more about how that evolved?

Joe: That’s a key challenge in any divorce where there’s such animosity between the adults. When children are involved, the adults can’t put aside their feelings toward the other person, and the kids become the collateral damage. I’m an only child. I lived 100% with my mom, and I think my dad felt like she was turning me against him. I was a teenager. As an adult you look back and say there’s enough blame to go around — maybe even myself. But that’s what happens. One person can’t set aside their feelings, and by definition they take it out on the kids. I remember my mom wanted him to come to my high school graduation, so she mailed him a ticket and he mailed it back. Then she sent him a graduation portrait of me — an 8×10 in a frame — and he dropped it off in a paper bag at our house. You’re thinking, what did I do? I’m just the kid. This is your son. He graduated at the top of his class. Wouldn’t you want that picture? She was trying to bridge the gap, but in those high-conflict situations, there’s really no getting through. The last time I saw him, they were arguing over who was going to pay for my college. My mom dressed me up in a suit jacket and tie, got me a haircut, and put me in the back of that courtroom so the judge could see me as a respectful young man. This was back in the 80s, before child support guidelines, when the divorce rate was really spiking. I sat there watching this battle ping-pong back and forth thinking, I wish I was hanging out with my girlfriend or playing in my band. He stomped off in the hallway of the courthouse. I was 15 or 16. I never saw him again. I think I got one letter telling me he was getting remarried, and then the next letter was from his estate notifying me that he had passed. That was 2019 — a 39-year gap with no communication in between. That’s a lesson in what not to do in a divorce.

Sol: I’ll be honest, I’m feeling a little emotional. That’s really intense for a child to experience.

Joe: I appreciate that. It took a lot of time and a lot of unresolved feelings to work through as an adult. Your kids didn’t want the divorce. They didn’t ask for it. They don’t fully understand what’s happening. They just want to love both of you and spend time with both of you. And it really does have a very lasting impact through the years that most adults don’t realize in the moment.

Sol: For any parents listening who are approaching or already in litigation, what would you like them to understand about how conflict shapes a child’s sense of relationship?

Joe: The one mistake I see parents make over and over is assuming their kids don’t know what’s going on. It doesn’t matter how old they are — they know. A 5-year-old isn’t going to say, “I see you’re both in conflict,” but they’re going to cry, wet the bed, suck their thumb, or react to the stress in some other way. Kids are sponges. Whatever you think you’re saying, hiding, or that they don’t hear — they absolutely do. Keep your conflict away from your kids. Do not involve them. Bite down on your tongue and maintain a united front as mom and dad. As soon as you leave that space, go to your car and pound the steering wheel if you need to. But in that moment when you are mom and dad, you are not plaintiff and defendant. You need to make sure your children feel safe, secure, and loved — so they never have to choose sides. Naturally, what winds up happening is that if a parent says to a little kid, “You don’t really want to spend time with your mom, do you?” — the kid is going to say no. Parents don’t even realize they’re doing it because their agenda is coloring their parenting. Asking leading questions like, “You have a lot more fun at mom’s house, don’t you?” and then, “Why don’t you just stay here this weekend?” — that kind of thing is very common in high-conflict situations. We need to really watch what we say in front of our kids and to our kids.

Sol: What I’m hearing is that when parents are holding a grudge, it can become more about seeking revenge than finding resolution. Why do you feel like parents sometimes confuse the two?

Joe: We’re all very busy and stretched thin. Think about showing up to a big morning presentation after your neighbor’s dog barked all night and you got zero sleep. Would you be at your best? Now think of that barking dog as the stress of your divorce, your job, single parenting — whatever it is. What can you do to address it so you’re your best self? In my barking dog example — get earplugs. What I’d say to parents is: recognize that this is happening. Recognize that you have a choice, that you don’t need to react to the other person, that you are in control of yourself. And if you need help with that, seek it out. We’re all so self-sufficient — it’s very much an American mindset. But talk to a therapist, talk to a counselor. They can teach you how to not react to your ex-spouse, how to manage your feelings so you can be your best parent. I hear this all the time: “We went to counseling and it didn’t work.” Okay — but what was the purpose? If it was to save the marriage and it didn’t, that’s one thing. But what if you went as individuals, or as a couple specifically for co-parenting support? Not to put the marriage back together, but to learn to communicate effectively and put your feelings aside. There are people who can help you with this, and you do have a choice in how you act and behave.

Sol: As we transition from being a married couple to co-parents, there’s still a relationship — it just has to shift. You’re advocating for support throughout that whole process. Why do it alone without a team?

Joe: Absolutely. We can read books and do certain things on our own. But to get real dynamic feedback from a counselor or therapist — someone who will challenge you and your way of thinking — the question you have to ask yourself is: is this behavior serving me? Is it making me a better parent or a worse parent? Conflict doesn’t make you a better parent. Do whatever you can to manage it. That’s why an app like yours is so important. We all have that friend whose name on the caller ID makes us think, “Oh, man.” Now imagine your phone blowing up with messages from someone you’re in conflict with. An app like yours can help manage that — keep it behind a velvet rope so it doesn’t spill over into your day. There’s nothing worse than sitting in a meeting, your phone buzzes, you flip it over, and there’s an all-caps nasty message. It’s hard to stay present when you’re facing communication like that.

Sol: In a way, when parents are embroiled in tit-for-tat communication, someone’s always playing offense and someone’s playing defense — and it’s not helping anyone move on or be a better parent.

Joe: Exactly. And there are tools out there that can help. Using them doesn’t make you a failure or less of a parent. In fact, it makes you a better parent. Presence is the gift you give to someone. Imagine being a single parent fighting wars on multiple fronts — how are you going to be fully present for your child? Having those gatekeepers helps. You know you’re not missing anything, and you get to choose when you engage with those messages. We’ve been trained by social media to respond instantly the moment something comes in — waiting for those three dots so we can type right back. What a waste of time. Just deal with it when you’re ready.

Sol: Do parents typically come to you early in the process, or do you see people coming post-judgment?

Joe: Almost all of our case work is divorce, not post-judgment. We focus on people who have made the decision to divorce together and want a more peaceful alternative to attorney-driven litigation — like what my parents went through. As a divorce mediator, we really need both people on the same page. We want to get them early in the process before things have gone off the rails. Maybe 5% of our clients have already engaged with or retained an attorney, but the majority come to us through our website through private mediation — not court-ordered. When it comes to post-judgment cases, we’ll only work with former clients. People who come through the courts at that stage have usually already tried litigation, and the judge has ordered them to try mediation as a condition of being heard. Invariably, over the years, we’d get people writing in asking us to just write a letter saying they reached out — so they could go back to court without actually trying. I’m not spending time on that. The former clients who do come back are genuinely trying to resolve something new, like figuring out college support for a kid who’s now heading to school in Europe. That I can work with. But if people want to fight, they’re going to fight. No matter how much you tell them they could save hundreds of thousands of dollars, finish in months instead of years, and not destroy their family — if they’re blinded by rage, there’s no talking them off the ledge.

Sol: Do you ever have situations where one spouse wants mediation and the other needs more convincing?

Joe: About half the people who inquire have a reluctant spouse, and we can’t mediate because it has to be voluntary. We position ourselves as neutral third parties and are very clear from the start: we are not in the business of convincing your spouse to get a divorce or to mediate. We’ll share the benefits of mediation and answer any questions about why it might be preferable to litigation, and then it’s their choice. More often than not, the reluctant party feels like they’d be at a disadvantage — and that’s unfortunate, because as a mediator, even though I’m neutral, I advocate for both sides. Many times where there’s a power imbalance or a lack of financial knowledge on one side, that person wants to retain an attorney because it makes them feel protected. And that’s fine — you can absolutely mediate with us and then have an attorney review your agreement afterward. They’ll tell you whether it’s fair or whether you should go back and ask for more. But it’s not our job to convince anyone. Probably half the people who genuinely want to mediate can’t because their spouse is unwilling.

Sol: You mentioned the desire for protection as a potential roadblock. What other kinds of reluctance do you encounter?

Joe: Mostly the other piece is one person not believing the marriage is over. They want to keep working on it. The sad reality is it takes two people to stay married but only one to file for divorce. If you’re that reluctant spouse and you’ve accepted there’s nothing you can do to change your partner’s mind, your choice becomes how you get this divorce — do you pull the pin on a grenade, or do you mediate and try to preserve your family, your wealth, and your dignity? When we encounter those situations, someone will sometimes walk into what should be a mediation initial meeting and essentially have a counseling session. I have to redirect that because I’m woefully underqualified as a mental health professional. When someone says, “We’ve had four marriage counselors already — what’s a fifth one going to do differently?” that person is drowning, holding on to a life raft and praying for one last chance. At its core, that’s really the fear of the unknown. Fear of what comes next.

Sol: I can really relate to that. Having been married and approaching divorce, all the fears that come up — will I survive this? — I can absolutely relate to that reluctance.

Joe: That’s part of why we try to allay whatever fears we can. Getting divorced is financially daunting — the same income now has to stretch across two households, and most of our clients can barely manage one. Part of our process is checking the financial reality of settlements to make sure both parties can at least be okay — not that one person is fine and the other is destitute. There’s also the loss of support. For a lot of people, their spouse is their entire world, and they may not have a strong support system around them. What happens if I get sick? Who takes care of me? Any one of those concerns is daunting on its own. Now throw a divorce on top and tell someone they need to resolve all of them at the same time. We try to help people transition through this. My partner Cheryl — who is also my wife — is a divorce coach. I like to think I’m the most important person in the room because I did the mediation, but make no mistake: it’s emotions that drive divorce. Cheryl is really the most important person in the room. She helps clients manage the emotional piece, and when you can manage that and put on a clear head, you can start to say, “Okay, I’m going to be short $1,000 a month — what can I do about that? How do I build my career, earn extra income, reduce expenses?” When you gain mental clarity, you gain tactical clarity. Divorce is a deeply emotional issue, and that’s what clouds people’s judgment and their ability to move forward.

Sol: My listeners won’t be surprised to know how little I think of the litigation and family court system. How does mediation create the safety that litigation doesn’t?

Joe: Attorneys play a very valuable role in some cases. I’ve run into situations involving dissipation of assets, failure to file tax returns for ten years, or undisclosed families in other countries. Those are not mediation-friendly cases, and there needs to be a system in place for them. But the vast majority can be handled in mediation. It really boils down to one thing: fear. If you’ve ever called a home security company and they put you on hold, they start telling you that every 3.2 seconds someone’s home is broken into — that’s a scare tactic. And that’s exactly what the legal system does. “You don’t want to get screwed, do you? We’ll get you every penny.” Of course you believe someone who went to school for 17 years. Mediation is the opposite. We have a saying: do the discovery before the deciding. We don’t decide anything upfront — we gather information, because numbers don’t lie. I have an MBA in finance. I’m not a lawyer, but I’m a rare bird as a mediator because of that background. A lot of the complex cases we get — high-net-worth, business owners, complex stock options — come to us because I can say, “Here’s the reality. Your lawyer is going to say they’ll get you everything, but one party is not walking away with 100% of the assets. It’s just not happening.” What mediation does is lay everything out: here’s what you have, here’s what you both need — a place to live, a car, groceries, a path to retirement — now how do we divide this fairly? That takes the temperature down. If you stayed married, you’d share your retirement with your spouse. So those conversations become, “What’s fair?” And that element — what’s fair — is really what it boils down to.

Sol: With your finance background, how do you see money playing a role in these situations? You talk about it as a symbolic fight.

Joe: Money is power, and people want to own power. We see that in our political and corporate systems, and it plays out the same way in divorce. Someone who’s been at the office, working the hours, earning the salary, feels like “this is mine.” They identify themselves through it. But consider this: many women today are educated, intelligent, college-graduated — women who perhaps gave up their careers to be the primary caregiver in the home. Had they stayed in the workforce, they may very well have reached the same professional position as their spouse. By being that primary caregiver, they gave up that power and are now in a very vulnerable position. The message we try to deliver is that you built a partnership. One of you worked outside the home and earned resources; one of you worked inside the home and managed them. Both roles are equally important. That’s how we level the playing field and help both parties feel they have a real say in how the money gets allocated — because they did play a valuable role.

Sol: That’s a very empowering message. Facing divorce can feel incredibly disempowering, so hearing that you’ll be okay and that this is a priority in the room — I imagine that goes a long way toward cooling the temperature.

Joe: It certainly does.

Sol: Let’s say a listener is considering mediation. What should they be looking for in a good mediator?

Joe: First and foremost: experience in the issue you’re actually facing. For example, if your spouse has a significant behavioral or mental health issue, I’m not your mediator. I would tell you directly — I’m glad you want to mediate, but you’d be better served by someone with a mental health background. Match the professional’s skill and training to what you need. The other thing is that experience genuinely matters. As the issues get bigger and the conflict gets hotter, you need someone with years and years of practice. If you’re in a high-conflict or post-judgment situation, find out whether they’ve done court-ordered mediation training and whether they understand the relevant state-specific processes — because a mediator can actually negatively impact your ability to move through the courts if they don’t. And ask about their case resolution rate. People sometimes think, “Well, they tried — they were neutral, they tried.” But a good mediator gets people who are at loggerheads to reach agreement — that’s the job. Average mediation resolution rates are around 70%. I’ve had clients reach out to us who said, “We started with another mediator, had six sessions, and got nowhere.” First, I apologize on behalf of the mediation community. Second, let’s get you through this. If you’re talking to me for six or twelve months, we’ve got a bigger problem. You want to spend two or three months with a mediator, move through the issues, and move forward. Our case resolution rate is 98%. Over the years, we’ve only lost five cases — one involved ten years of unfiled taxes, another involved an undisclosed family in another country. There was no getting out of those.

Sol: I can just hear listeners saying, “That sounds wonderful, but my ex is a narcissist.” Do those cases work in mediation? Is there a technique for that?

Joe: Absolutely — and I’d tell your listeners to grab a pad and pen, because this technique works in the broadest social sense, not just with clinical narcissists. A narcissist is self-centered. They like to hear themselves talk, be right, and get their way. The way to move through conversations with them is to frame everything as a perceived benefit to them. Phrases like, “That’s a really good point,” or “I could see why you’d be upset about that — that makes perfect sense, let’s talk about it.” You’re not trying to trick anyone. You’re acknowledging and validating. You’re saying, I’m putting myself in your position, and I can see how you’d feel that way. Making that person feel right, feel special — that’s how you move them. That works time and time again. You get someone who says, “I’m paying too much in child support.” Your response: “You’re right, you do work long hours. I don’t know how you deal with that boss or that travel schedule. You’re a rock star.” If that gets you the child support you need, keep the words flowing. I call this “detached engagement.” You’re engaged in the conversation, but you’re floating above it as a neutral observer watching it unfold. It’s not you saying those things — it’s your avatar. So you don’t have to feel conflicted about giving someone a compliment. You’re just trying to get resolution — shoes for your kid, groceries on the table, whatever it is. And my favorite question of all, genuinely useful for anyone: “Help me understand.” It doesn’t say “why,” which can feel inflammatory. It gets the other person talking. You learn what their actual positions are, start filing it away, and build your path around it. Then, as things come out, you acknowledge and validate: “You’re right, these formulas are ridiculous — who do these government people think they are with their child support guidelines? They don’t know our family. That’s exactly why you and I should mediate our own amount. We should decide what’s best for our family.” You jump on their bandwagon and then gently steer it toward mediation: “You’re right — we should control this. I don’t want anybody telling us what to do.” You’re getting what you want by acknowledging what the other person is upset about.

Sol: That’s such good advice for any relationship. It doesn’t require a narcissist in the equation. As we form new relationships in our lives, leading with understanding rather than telling people what we want is a powerful approach.

Joe: Absolutely. Rather than telling people what we want, ask them what they want. In a good relationship, they’ll ask you back. If it’s one-sided, that’s a fire hose — I don’t want to get sprayed with a fire hose of information. I want someone to say, “I’ve been talking so much — how was your day?” In co-parenting situations, you’ll often have one person consistently on the offense. Their goal is to tire the other person out until they succumb. But that person eventually snaps back with a vengeance, and then you’re really off to the races. It’s better to get it out up front — get that acknowledging, validating dialogue going and make sure it’s at least two-sided. With enough practice, even a difficult communicator can be guided toward stating objectives rather than just attacking. There are great books out there for this. Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss is excellent. Getting to Yes is the classic. Read those books and they’ll change the way you view the world and communication — whether you’re going through a divorce, dealing with a co-worker, or negotiating with a neighbor.

Sol: Joe, before we close — for a parent listening right now who’s feeling scared and overwhelmed, what do they most need to hear?

Joe: That it will be okay. This too shall pass. In the moment it feels like the world is collapsing in on you. But kids grow up. They are no longer minors. And it has been my experience, 100% of the time, that when they become adults, if you were truly the one who supported them, was there for them, and showed them unconditional love — they’re going to figure that out. They might not get it at 18 or 19, but by the time they’re 25, 30, or 35, they’ll know who was there. Just keep doing the right things, over and over and over. As the relationship evolves and your kids grow into adults, they’ll know it was you.

Sol: Joe, thanks so much for being on today and sharing your insights. It’s all been incredibly helpful. For listeners interested in connecting with you and learning more about your work, how can they reach out?

Joe: The best place is our website — Equitable Mediation at equitablemediation.com. We have a full learning center with articles, videos, courses, and checklists, and a lot of it is free. We want people to feel educated and have quality resources. We practice in six states, so check out everything in the learning center. We have great articles on co-parenting, how to tell your kids about the divorce, developing parenting plans, child support — all the things that can help people feel informed and a little more at peace as they go through this process, whether pre- or post-judgment. Equitablemediation.com is the best place to start.

Sol: Wonderful. We’ll put those links in the show notes. Again, thanks so much, Joe. Have a great day.

Joe: Thanks — you too.

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As parents, it’s our job to minimize the impact divorce will have on our kids. And one of the ways is by working with a mediator like me to develop a comprehensive parenting plan that puts them first. Listen as I share my tips to do just that with The Two Docs.

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Disclaimer

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Anything discussed in this podcast should not be construed as legal, financial, or emotional advice. It is for informational purposes only. If you are in need of such advice you MUST seek the guidance of a qualified professional where you live.

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Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

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Podcast Transcript: Ten Kids Two Docs with Guest Joe Dillon

The Two Docs: Welcome to Ten Kids Two Docs, parenting insights from pediatrician moms. I’m Dr. Sylvia Bank and I’m Dr. Vivian Carlin. Welcome back. We are so excited today because we have a special guest, Joe Dillon. Joe has a master’s degree in finance and completed specialized training in negotiation and mediation. He founded Equitable Mediation Services and that offers a more peaceful and dignified path towards divorce.

We learned from our season one that one of our most popular episodes was on the loss or death of a parent. And that was the first episode we’ve done on what is referred to as ACEs, adverse childhood events. There are many ACEs: any type of abuse, child neglect, mental illness, parental or household substance use or alcoholism, witnessing domestic violence. One of the ACEs that is the most common is when there is parent separation or divorce. As a result of that, we really wanted to highlight this topic. We have a guest on the show who I think is just perfect, who’s really devoted his career to navigating families through divorce in a way that really minimizes the stressful effects on children and has their best interests in mind.

I would point listeners to healthychildren.org, which has a handout entitled Childhood Adversity: Buffering Stress and Building Resilience. It says, “For many families, events happen that are unpredictable. These events can be traumatic and affect how a child feels and behaves. For example, when parents make the hard decision to separate or divorce, it can be very confusing for young children. They may act out, cry, or feel sad, lose developmental milestones, or have trouble sleeping. Some have problems concentrating and have a hard time at school.” I’m really excited about this discussion.

Welcome to the Ten Kids Two Docs podcast. Seasoned pediatricians and longtime friends, Sylvia Bank and Vivian Carlin have counseled thousands of parents and are raising four and six kids, respectively. Join these doctor moms as they incorporate fun and their combined wisdom and experience to share parenting insights for anyone looking for practical and trustworthy guidance. Please note that this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment from your doctor.

Joe, we are so excited to have you on our show. When I first learned about you and your business, one of the things that really drew me to have you on our show is that you clearly are very motivated to help parents walk through this so that they can do this in the best way possible for their child. I know you’re also partially inspired by your own story. I was hoping you would take a few moments to introduce our audience to you, tell us a little bit about yourself as well as your story.

Joe Dillon: First of all, thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to speak to the audience because absolutely, Vivian, you bring up an important point that the children are the littlest victims of divorce. As adults we are so wrapped up in our own thing that sometimes we forget that there is collateral in the process and we need to be very careful about the impact the divorce will have on children.

A little bit about me personally and professionally: I’ve been mediating twenty-eight years, in private practice with Equitable Mediation for seventeen. My background as you mentioned is in finance and really when I think about divorce I think about it as a parenting plan with a financial component. That’s what a divorce is. My dad was in construction. Whenever I talk about divorce with people with children, I say the parenting plan is the concrete foundation on which your divorce house will be built. You wouldn’t put up the walls, you wouldn’t put up the roof first, you don’t put in the windows. You make sure you have a solid foundation. That is the parenting plan. I’d like to spend some time today talking about what that means.

My parents didn’t really get that. They litigated their divorce. As we’ll explore today, I’m a mediator. I try to help people avoid attorney involvement, litigation, adversarial divorces. They went back and forth. I was a teenager. As doctors, you both know teenagers are in a really tough place. The hormones and it’s all about me and how could you do this to me. The impact that it had on me was pretty severe because my parents were so busy litigating and fighting, they kind of forgot about me. I just sort of quietly suffered through it and really had to spend a lot of time working on my own emotions and what I was feeling and what I was going through. I was really angry and it was because my folks completely, really mostly ignored me through the process. They litigated and I sat in the back of the courtroom and did all that stuff.

We don’t as adults sometimes understand the profound impact our words, our actions have. That’s what I want to bring in here today and that’s what I’m always pushing in my practice where I’m saying if your kids were sitting in this room right now watching the two of you, what would they think of you? That’s a really powerful question. I come at it both as a practitioner as well as the child of a litigated divorce.

The Two Docs: This is what our podcast is all about, both being experts and experiencing it firsthand as you know for us moms and pediatricians.

Why don’t you talk a little bit about your life experience being a child of divorce? Maybe highlight a little bit about what it was like before the split happened living in that household and then leading up to the separation and divorce.

Joe Dillon: That’s a great question, Sylvia. One of the things that I think as adults we really underestimate is the intellect of our children. They know what’s going on. They’re observant. Kids are sponges. If you don’t want someone to know something, don’t tell a kid, don’t be around kids. Kids, they’re like radars up. When I was a child, I noticed the patterns. My parents would go from sitting on the couch next to each other to watching TV in separate rooms, sleeping in the same room, sleeping in separate rooms. Dad would come home really late on purpose so he wouldn’t have to see mom.

As a kid you’re watching this unfold and you know something’s wrong, but you’re not old enough to really understand what this all means. It started maybe when I was around eleven, twelve years old where it really got worse and worse. There was always arguing prior to that. But as an observant child watching this all unfold, I’ll never forget I never got the conversation from my parents. The way I found out they were getting a divorce was my dad was driving out of the driveway with his car filled with stuff. Listeners, let’s just emphasize the point that that is not the right way to do this. Unfortunately some people don’t think that way.

I remember my mom just apologizing and crying. I said to her, first of all, if you didn’t think I knew what was going on, come on. I’m not living under a rock. The second thing which I think really shocked her was she was so apologetic, I’m sorry through her tears and I was like, you know what? I am relieved. She stopped and said what do you mean? I said, “Do you know what it’s like to live in this house with you all screaming at each other? And then silent for months at a time, and I’m not really sure which end of this conversation is going to be happening. Is it silence? Is it screaming? Is it polite?” I’m like, I’m just relieved. Thank goodness.

The Two Docs: Can you describe a little bit more personally about the emotions that you felt during this time? How do you feel like that affected your life during the time that this was happening?

Joe Dillon: Certainly. A number of ways. The first I would say is I was very scared. My background is Irish and Italian. So two very calm, level-headed nationalities, quiet folk, real just not demonstrative at all. There’s a lot of yelling. Yelling is scary and I’m an only child, so I found comfort by hiding in a closet, which was good fun. I had my stuffed animal, go in the closet or grab a book or whatever. Just stay out of the way basically. That was scary. The yelling and it was so erratic that you always felt like you were walking on eggshells. You never knew if there was going to be an explosion, if mom and dad were talking or they weren’t.

Confusion also set in because sometimes they’d be screaming and then you’d see them holding hands. As a kid you’re looking at this and saying okay, I thought you weren’t talking to each other because you haven’t talked to each other in two months and now all of a sudden you’re laughing. That was really confusing.

Anger, that was the most powerful one. I was angry that I had to make accommodations in my life as a teenager that my dad just took off. I didn’t see him. There were all these things happening where I was spending time in my mom’s lawyer’s office or in the courtroom. My life was on hold. It was like suspended animation for years, not knowing what was happening. I was very angry, pushed a lot of people away really. As a kid, you don’t recognize that people were just like, well this guy’s a jerk, I’m not going to hang out with him. It really kind of pushed a lot of folks away even through high school, even in college, even after college. This went on for a long time.

Then finally, believe it or not, at age thirty, I hit this wall and I said, okay, you’re going to have a heart attack if you don’t really process what happened, even though it’s been fifteen years. I really sat down, did the work, and said okay, this is not good. I need to really course correct. I took a very hard right turn and made that conscientious effort to acknowledge that happened. It wasn’t my fault. It didn’t happen to me. It happened around me, I guess. I said, well, those folks are adults. They made their own choices. I’m sad that my father chose not to stay in my life. I never saw him or heard from him again after my folks got divorced. Sad about that. Sad about my mom was so severely impacted that she really, her life stopped at age forty-five. She never dated. She really didn’t have a lot of friends. Didn’t really do much. Her life was ruined in my estimation.

I made that decision that that was not going to happen to me. That’s another thing that folks, even for all the anger they’re spewing at the time, they don’t realize the impact it has right back at them internally. If they go through a process like a divorce in an adversarial way, it’s damaging the other person, it’s damaging themselves, it’s damaging their kids, it’s draining their bank accounts. There’s no good that comes out of this. That’s my message to people: no matter how angry you are, remember your kids, remember yourself and make sure that you keep those emotions in check.

The Two Docs: That’s very good perspective. You had mentioned that you had made accommodations in your life during the teenage years when this was going on. Can you maybe give examples of that?

Joe Dillon: Sure. A perfect example, I played soccer and I had to quit soccer to get a job because my mom at the time, I know it’s not correct to say these days, but she was a stay-at-home mom. We say she worked inside the home. She was raising me and that was a decision. Back in the day, your parents could live on one income. It was a little different. I think as she got an inkling that something was wrong, she got a part-time job in a jewelry store. But that still paled in comparison to what my father was making.

There we were now. He leaves. She kept the house. We’re trying to run the house. I had to contribute to my own things. Whereas prior to that, I lived a very comfortable middle class existence where my folks could have bought me a car or could have paid for my car insurance or could have easily paid for my college, those things, and I then had to contribute.

On top of that, the other thing that happened was my dad being in construction and being a very handy guy, he was the man around the house. He did all the things that needed doing. Now dad leaves. I’d never once started a lawn mower. My mom is looking at me like, well, you need to figure out how to fix the lawn mower, how to cut down that tree, how to clean the gutters, how to repair the broken electrical outlet. I’m like a fourteen-year-old kid. She wants me to do electrical work around our house, which by the way is really bad idea for a fourteen-year-old who’s his own electrician. But I did my very best I could and that was always how I was spending my time rather than hanging out with my friends or playing sports or going out with my girlfriend. I was really beholden to the house and it really had a significant impact on me. That’s a lot where that anger came from where you’re thinking to yourself, well my friends are going to parties and hanging out at the football game and I’ve got to clean the gutters. This is not fun.

The Two Docs: It’s almost like you had to become an adult too early, financially and with real responsibilities in the house.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. Not just clean your room. My mom, God bless her, worked multiple jobs. I remember she worked in retail and retail stores close at like nine o’clock at night and I’m by myself unsupervised, which these days people would probably call youth services. But I was at home by myself after school until she got home.

Now I will say the positive from that, it was both a double-edged sword. I had to cook, I had to do laundry, I had to clean. My wife adores me for that because in our house I cook, I clean, I do the laundry, and she’s like there is a silver lining to this. Something good did come out of it. I will say I will thank my mom. She’d write instructions on how to cook. This is before the internet. You’d have to write all: put the oven on three-fifty, do this, do this. That was a positive but still that’s how I was spending my time and wasn’t exactly great. I’d rather have my carefree childhood rather than having to run a household.

The Two Docs: Tell us about in light of this personal experience, how do you take parents through developing a parenting plan? Where do you start?

Joe Dillon: We have a philosophy. This is my personal philosophy. Because even adults, they’re so overwhelmed. I ask them, how do you think your kids are feeling when you’re going to drop this news or if they already know, the uncertainty of what’s going to happen?

I say as parents, think of your kids literally as crawl, walk, run. That’s how we all learn. That’s how we get as mobile humans. That’s how we start. Let’s start with the crawling. The crawling is high level. You want a parenting plan where it’s fifty-fifty or where one of you has more overnights with the kids. Let’s just start really fifty thousand feet. Okay. Fifty-fifty then. Okay. What does that look like? Is that one week on, one week off? Is that switching every day? Then we come down to thirty thousand feet. We keep doing that until we dial in what I call the base plan. That’s just a normal Tuesday or a normal Saturday during the school year. It’s not a holiday. It’s not a summer. It’s not a break week.

Then from there, we also do the same for holidays, summers, then exceptions. What you do is you get some momentum going. Then I also start with parenting. Little secret for the listeners, hopefully I’m not revealing my mediator secret here, is that really I’ve never run across a set of parents who have been able to at least with a straight face look at me and say, no, Joe, I do not want what’s best for my children. No, I do not like my kids. I don’t love them. I don’t want them. You can trick them into getting along.

Then when I go, look at you guys. You’re doing so great. You agreed on this parenting plan. Let’s talk child support. That really helps.

The Two Docs: I love how your mediation is focused around the kids. Let’s talk about the child. The child needs a voice at the table. I love how your mediation style kind of is that child’s voice. I think for listeners it’s important to recognize not to underestimate the impact it has on the kids, how observant they are, but also as I shared to make sure if you are going to go through this path, speak to them, sit down with them, share with them what’s going on. You don’t have to give them the whole detailed story but you do have to explain to them about what’s happening with mom and dad.

That’s such a good point. I feel like there’s almost a generational difference there where we’ve learned that you talk to your children about these hard things. As pediatricians, we talk about when you’re talking to your children about death, you use the words that they died. You talk to your children about adoption. That used to not be a thing. You talk to your children about sex. We know they’re absorbing so much from that world around them. We want to be there to be the ones having honest conversations with them, not only so they have a chance to voice their concerns and to hear from you, but also so that they know going forward they trust that you are telling them, you’re not surprising them with something catastrophic.

Where do you feel like in that process? I know it varies from family to family and situation to situation, but in your opinion, where along that process do you feel like communication that things aren’t going well should begin to take place? Should it happen once the parents have decided to separate and divorce or earlier than that?

Joe Dillon: I believe it should happen once they’ve decided to divorce and also once they’ve gotten into mediation and have a parenting plan. Kids are going to ask a lot of questions and the worst thing as a parent, we know this: kids look up to you to have all the answers. What do you mean you don’t know? You’re the superhero. You’ve got all the answers. You’re in charge.

I believe parenting plans are the number one most important thing. It’s after that session where they can go home. Kids may have the idea or they may have said something, but at least now they’ll have information that says, okay, we sat down, we talked, we’ve decided this is what the plan’s going to be. Here’s the days with mom, the days with dad. I really think kids are afraid of the unknown. Even if you’ve mentioned it before you enter the mediation process, personally I think ideally is after that first session, at least in our world, when they have a parenting plan that they can share with them and explain how it’s going to work and what’s going to happen moving forward.

The Two Docs: I can imagine based on how you’ve shared your own personal story there’s so much fear of the unknown of the change that’s happening in the life of a child. Having a really well-laid-out parenting plan gives them some type of stability of this is what the future will look like.

But at the end of the day we also want kids to feel empowered. For that out of control feeling, I do have clients working with a couple right now and they’re like, listen, I have a teenager and we want him to feel empowered. We structured their parenting plan that says, this is how many days each of you mom and dad are going to get. Then you can sit with him on Sundays and say, this week, I think I’d like to spend three with dad and four with mom, but I got a game next week, so I’m going to spend four with dad because he coaches. You guys can work that out together.

Joe Dillon: Which also I think gives the child and in this case a teenager a sense of some control in a situation where they feel very out of control like you described so well in your own adolescence. That completely out of control fear of the unknown, not knowing what was happening next. As much of that as we can take off the child’s plate is better. The kids are so anxious and nervous, we don’t need to pile anything else on their plate. They’ve had enough.

The Two Docs: I want to thank our guest speaker today, Joe Dillon, for coming on our episode and sharing his personal story of divorce and what he does in formulating the parenting plan in his mediation. I do want to point our listeners to his web page, equitablemediation.com. It has some great resources, courses, and kits learning about mediation and divorce options. Please check out the website. It is very carefully written and it is a plethora of information that I think would be useful for a parent who’s undergoing a divorce.

Thank you so much for coming on our show and being special guest today.

Joe Dillon: I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. It’s been really a lot of fun and I really appreciate the conversation.

The Two Docs: Yes, thank you. This is Ten Kids, Two Docs. I’m Dr. Sylvia Bank and I’m Dr. Vivian Carlin.

Joe Dillon: And I’m Joe Dillon.

The Two Docs: We’ll see you next time.

Thank you for listening to Ten Kids Two Docs hosted and created by Sylvia Bank and Vivian Carlin. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and recommend our podcast to other listeners. Visit our website at 10kids2docs.com where you can find links to social media and leave comments or suggestions. Back next week with more topics in parenting.

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In our minds, divorces are long drawn out fights with attorneys acting as the weapon against the soon to be ex-spouse. It doesn’t have to be that way. Listen as I talk with Money Marci and share how mediation offers a quicker, easier, less expensive path to divorce if both partners are willing to be open to the process.

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Disclaimer

[/fusion_text][fusion_text columns=”” column_min_width=”” column_spacing=”” rule_style=”” rule_size=”” rule_color=”” hue=”” saturation=”” lightness=”” alpha=”” user_select=”” awb-switch-editor-focus=”” content_alignment_medium=”” content_alignment_small=”left” content_alignment=”left” disable_idd=”no” hide_on_mobile=”small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility” sticky_display=”normal,sticky” class=”” id=”” width_medium=”” width_small=”” width=”” min_width_medium=”” min_width_small=”” min_width=”” max_width_medium=”” max_width_small=”” max_width=”” margin_top_medium=”” margin_right_medium=”” margin_bottom_medium=”” margin_left_medium=”” margin_top_small=”” margin_right_small=”” margin_bottom_small=”” margin_left_small=”” margin_top=”0px” margin_right=”” margin_bottom=”” margin_left=”” fusion_font_family_text_font=”” fusion_font_variant_text_font=”” font_size=”16px” line_height=”” letter_spacing=”” text_transform=”” text_color=”var(–awb-color6)” animation_type=”fade” animation_direction=”static” animation_color=”” animation_speed=”1.0″ animation_delay=”0.5″ animation_offset=”” logics=””]

Anything discussed in this podcast should not be construed as legal, financial, or emotional advice. It is for informational purposes only. If you are in need of such advice you MUST seek the guidance of a qualified professional where you live.

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Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

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Transcript Not Available.

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Watch as I speak with Ed Franklin on Episode 2 of Raising 10 about my journey from child of divorce to founding Equitable Mediation Services and becoming a nationally recognized divorce mediator.

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Disclaimer

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Anything discussed in this podcast should not be construed as legal, financial, or emotional advice. It is for informational purposes only. If you are in need of such advice you MUST seek the guidance of a qualified professional where you live.

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Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

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ED FRANKLIN: Welcome back to Raising 10, the podcast where leadership, legacy, and family collide. Today’s guest knows firsthand that divorce doesn’t have to mean destruction. He’s an MBA-trained mediator, a nationally recognized expert, and the founder of Equitable Mediation Services. But more than credentials, Joe Dillon brings heart. Shaped by his own childhood experiencing a painful divorce, Joe has dedicated his life to helping families separate with dignity, respect, and peace. From Harvard to Northwestern, from classrooms to courtrooms, Joe has taught, judged, and led the way in transforming how couples navigate one of life’s toughest transitions. And today, he’s here to share his wisdom with us. So lean in, because this conversation isn’t just about divorce. It’s about resilience, relationships, and rewriting the story of family. Here’s my guest, Joe Dillon.

Good morning, podcast listeners. This is Ed Franklin with the Ed Franklin No Limits podcast. This is Raising 10, episode two. As you know, I just rebranded from Raising 8 to 10 because I had the two grandkids peppered in during my 39 years of parenting. And like every guest we have on, I have a great guest today. This gentleman’s name is Joe Dillon. And Joe is a professional mediator. I’d like to go through his education list, but I’d be here for three or four minutes. This guy is educated. And we’re going to talk about something you hope you never have to talk about, but since the divorce rate is still about 47% in America and maybe globally, it’s an important factor and there’s a lot of positive things about mediation and of course some negative things. So Joe, welcome to the show. You have a great background and the reason you do the work you do has a personal story about your childhood. Why don’t you tell us about that? Tell us a little bit about what you do and then I want to give my Reader’s Digest version of what the state of California requires you to do when you get divorced. But anyway, welcome to the show.

JOE DILLON: Thanks for having me. I appreciate that. You shouldn’t be embarrassed with that resume. As you mentioned, I am a divorce mediator and I’ve been doing this a long time. I’ve actually been mediating for 28 years and in private practice coming up on 18 years doing divorce. It’s a really interesting story as you’ll probably share a little bit. My parents litigated their divorce. So I am the classic example of what not to do. I sat in the back of the courtroom. I watched my parents scream and yell. And the last time I saw my dad was in the hallway of the courtroom when I was 15. That was it. And so as that story goes, when I’m working with clients and trying to help them negotiate all the stuff to peacefully end their marriage and be great co-parents, I’m kind of giving them a warning shot and saying, “Look, everybody tells you that’s not going to happen.” And I just, it’s very easy to just look at my face and you are looking at a child of a litigated divorce whose parents basically destroyed their lives and thankfully didn’t destroy mine. But let me tell you, it was a long road to recovery for me. That was for sure. It took a long time to get past that anger and that resentment. And maybe in a weird way, it’s my penance by helping people avoid what happened to me by being a mediator.

ED: Well, and one of the things I’ve talked about many times on my podcast, and I try to reiterate this as much as I can, is if you’re going to raise kids and get into a relationship, your relationship is paramount. Your successful relationship is paramount to raising kids. And the kids are going to be affected no matter what you do. They’re going to get affected. And I did everything wrong in my first two divorces. I was the angry, arguing one. And my Reader’s Digest version of the state of California and probably many states for my listeners, if you haven’t been through it, is if you file a dissolution of marriage, you’re going to get divorced. It’s mandatory that you go to a mediator and the court has mediators that you go sit down and talk with. In my personal experience and a lot of people that I know, it’s a mess because you’re arguing with your soon-to-be ex-spouse usually and you’re trying to get as much visitation and you’re trying to get the house and you’re trying to get all these things and you don’t have much time to mediate. So the mediator is kind of a referee at some level in my experience. And then after you finish that, then they make a recommendation to the judge and the judge reads it and you really don’t have any more power because he or she is going to decide if this is what’s best in their mind for you and they don’t really even know you. What you do is so much more of a positive experience because you’re really sitting down and letting both parties tell their story and I’m assuming it’s not as heated in your environment. Because these people have sought you out. They’re paying you. It’s kind of a different thing. It’s kind of the difference between going to the DMV or paying AAA to do your DMV paperwork.

JOE: You bring up a couple good points I want to comment on. First is, one of the things that I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to the people who work in the legal system like judges and court-appointed mediators because these are not high-paid people. People think judges make a lot of money. Last time I checked, an average judge made about $85,000, which here in the state of California probably gets you a Winnebago and maybe a burrito down at Taco Bell. And so you’re not really rolling in the dough and you’re listening to people go back and forth all day long. As far as the court-appointed mediators go, and again, I say this with all the love of my heart because we all have to start somewhere. That’s usually the first place you go when you’re trying to get mediation clients or learn how to mediate. So you’re getting the intern. You’re getting the entry-level person, which is great. No problem. But divorces are so heated and they can be so filled with emotions that those individuals sometimes don’t have the skills to handle that. Now, I will tell you this also, Ed, is think of it this way. Let’s say you and I were going to go to lunch and you said, “Dude, I’ve had a really rough week. Can we just go somewhere? We’ll just pick up some sandwiches and we’ll just hang out and catch up.” And I’d be like, “Great.” And then I brought you to an emergency room at a hospital and you’d be like, “What the heck is happening?” Because the environment is so stressful. People are screaming and sirens are going off and you’re like, “Joe, we were just trying to have lunch, man.” That’s the same thing when you’re trying to mediate a peaceful process in a courtroom, in a courthouse. Your brain is saying, “I’m in a courthouse. Well, then this person must be the arbiter of my future, and I’ve got to argue my case, and this person’s going to rule in my favor.” In my world, it’s private mediation. It’s done in an office or like I use Zoom, so people can do it from home. They’re relaxed. They’ve got their dog on their lap. I’ve met a lot of dogs, and they’re relaxed and they’re calm, and we’re just trying to put them in a good space that they’re comfortable with so that they can have a good conversation. So you’ve got a different level of professional, but you’ve also got a different environment that you’re conducting it in. And you are correct. Many states do require court-ordered mediation first. So I always say to folks before you lawyer up, you’re going to see me now or you’re going to see me later. And quite frankly, you’re probably not going to see me later because you’re going to get told by the judge to go see one of our court-ordered mediators who are amazing people, but may or may not have the skills to resolve your issues.

ED: It’s absolutely a losing battle for that mediator in the system because I remember how much anxiety I had going in there and all these points I had to make. And something else that my listeners may not know and President Reagan actually signed this into law in California is California is a no-fault divorce state. So no matter what you do, whether, this is just for my listeners that don’t know, if your spouse cheats on you or they’ve done something that would require you in your mind to get divorced, the court doesn’t care. You’re going in there evenly. You have these children you’ve got to manage. You’ve got whatever. You’re managing property and things like that. And that’s frustrating because if you are the victim of somebody, maybe there was infidelity, you’re angry. You’re thinking, “Well, they did that. I should get this.” That’s not the case.

JOE: No. And that’s across the US now. Irreconcilable differences is now in all 50 states. The last holdout was New York in 2012. But you’re absolutely right. And unless there’s something extreme, and I’m talking like extreme domestic violence, like somebody liquidated all the bank accounts, you’re right. And you’re just like, “What the heck? I did my part. I tried to engage and like this person did me wrong yet I have to give them half of everything and I’m very angry about that.” And so like you said, Ed, managing the emotions is actually the hardest part of my job. Once you can get someone calm, most people are rational. Unless there’s something going on upstairs, most people at the end of the day know the difference between right and wrong. But when that lizard brain kicks in and they’re angry, it’s really hard to explain to them, this is, we got to talk about what’s fair, what’s equitable, what’s sharing this and that, and they don’t want to hear it. And so that’s my first job is to talk them off the ledge. Then once we do that, we can get into the negotiations.

ED: Now, do you mediate child visitation and things like that there?

JOE: Oh, yeah.

ED: So just for my listeners again, the idea of mediation is for you to work everything out. So you go set it on the judge’s desk and he can say, “Oh, cool. These guys are all good with the way the visitation’s going to work.” That’s the goal. Does that ever happen? I went into court several times before I went to court just to watch. And I never, I don’t think I ever saw equitable like two people coming in and going, “No, judge, we’re cool.”

JOE: Well, it happens. So one of the things that we’re most proud of is our case resolution rate is 98%. That’s amazing. Yeah. And that’s like, even in private mediation, it’s about 70%. And I think a lot of that has to do with us treating people like humans and going, “Yeah, it makes perfect sense that you’re angry.” Like, mediators are supposed to be neutral. And I absolutely am, but it doesn’t mean I’m not a person and I can’t recognize when somebody’s hurting or sad or crying or upset. And just be able to talk to them and go, “Yeah, that stinks. You’re right. It—” and I say that to people. I’m like, I get that I’m not here as a cruise director planning your dream vacation. I know you don’t want to be here. I know you’re angry. I know you’re disappointed. You didn’t get married with the intention of getting divorced. And that’s upsetting. Let’s talk about that and let’s rage through that a bit and then we can clear the deck and go, all right, now how do we move this thing forward? And to your point, like with our cases, we get people to that place first. And I think that’s unfortunately what the legal system is designed to do. It’s to choose a winner and a loser, a plaintiff and a defendant, right versus wrong. And in the setup of a divorce is a recipe for disaster. You’re pitting two parties against each other and now you’ve got this poor judge who has all of 15 minutes to hear both of your sides and then go, gavel, that’s it, get out of my courtroom. It’s not like on TV where there’s this impassioned plea and there’s tears and the judge is—oh, it’s like they’re like I got 462 cases to get through today, next. And God bless them for doing that work because I would never want that job.

ED: And another thing for my listeners, I don’t know if they still use Dissomaster in California. So Dissomaster is a program where they put both spouses or partners’ financial information in, and actually a question in California, even if you’re not married, was it, is it still the common law thing where it’s like seven years or something?

JOE: I don’t know about that, but I know if kids are involved, there is an expectation of child support. So that much I do know.

ED: Right. So they take your financial information, they put it into this computer and it spits out your child support either side, whether the wife’s paying or the husband’s paying or whatever. So they don’t have a lot of latitude with that. In fact, I don’t think they have any latitude with that. They’re supposed to stick to that. And for good reason. You don’t want a judge making a judgment based on the color tie I’m wearing or my ex-wife looks like his ex-wife, something like that. They want, so they put in this financial piece in there that makes it easier for the judge to make a decision. Now, when you’re doing mediation, do you have to follow those rules?

JOE: Yeah. So it’s funny you brought up Ronald Reagan. Up until 1984, it was at the judge’s discretion to decide what the child support was. And I’ll tell you a story about that in a minute. But since then all 50 states have been required to have some sort of mechanized way to output child support. Naturally the federal government left it up to the states and we now have 50 different ways to calculate child support. America, of course, good job everybody. So what wound up happening is California like many other states has a guideline. We use something known as the income shares model and it’s gotten much better over the years. A lot of different factors in, and in mediation we use it as a starting point and what’s been helpful is we can deviate from it with reason. Now normally the way the guidelines are, and in my opinion, I do practice in multiple states, so I practice in 13 different states. Of all the guidelines we work with I would say California’s is far and away the best we’ve got. They really do try to go by county, go by income, by health insurance, who’s got tax deductions. Like they’re trying, time sharing. They’re trying to figure out as many factors as they can put in there to try to make this thing make sense. So I do applaud the state for doing that. And so along those lines, usually it serves as a floor. It’s usually like, look, unless you got a really good reason, this is kind of what the state is expecting. And so what we do is we have clients do budgets and we say, “Okay, well, let’s see how much you think you’re really going to spend on the kids,” and then we go back and we match it to the child support guideline and usually it comes in pretty darn close. That’s why I’m like, “Wow, this is creepy. This is really pretty good.” But to your point, Ed, you can deviate if you’ve got a reason. And so there can be reasons where one parent might be paying more of, say, private school or summer camp or something, or maybe somebody is in an industry that’s probably getting downsized and they know that they’re going to be losing their job soon and so we’re going to anticipate that. But for the most part, the expectation is the guideline is the guideline so that the kids don’t become the economic victims of divorce, because then you got parents arguing about it’s not enough, it’s too much and the kids aren’t in the courtroom or whatever, in the mediation space with them. So the guidelines really do actually work pretty well these days here in California.

ED: So something that’s changed a lot since my last divorce because I’ve been with my current wife 26 years is that women were still not making the kind of money men were making in a lot of cases. So my wives both stayed home with the kids. They would do some side jobs and things like that. So when it came down to the income, I was mostly on the hook for the child support and mine was extremely high even though I had a lot of visitation. But I’m not here to really talk about that. But nowadays, I know several women that make much more income than a man, and they may end up with the kids primarily. And I was at one point where I had one of my daughters come live with me and I still had to pay her mom child support because of Dissomaster, because of the thing, and it wasn’t a lot but it was still frustrating because it’s like now I have her full-time and I still have to pay her but it was much less than what I was paying before.

JOE: Yeah. And that’s something that we see in negotiation and mediation where we can, the phrase, the fancy word of the day alert is a rebuttable presumption, meaning unless you give me a good reason that it shouldn’t be this, it’s going to be this. And that’s one of them where we can say look, the income disparity, whatever, but party A has this child 100% of the time, party B is not incurring any ordinary or extraordinary expenses, therefore for the purposes of this divorce, there will be no child support paid between them. And that’s what mediation is good for because you can really sit down and you can say, “Look, let’s just be honest. Maybe they do go by you once a month.” All right, if that’s the case, then how’s 50 bucks a month? Just use your common sense. Like you said, sometimes the guidelines, the way they’re set up. Now, one of the things that again what I like about California is taxation becomes an issue. So like who claims the kids, filing status, those kinds of things, and so we have a lot of room that we can kind of play with in terms of how we push the buttons and pull the levers to get, not that we’re manipulating the guideline, but we’re working it to meet the couple’s needs based on our mediation process and like getting to know them and know what they’re trying to achieve. And you’re right in the sense that we have seen a lot more women now, higher earners earning more than men. We have women who pay child support. We have women who pay alimony. And that’s been a message I’ve had to kind of share. We, up until recently, people were like, “Well, only women get alimony or only women get child support.” I’m like, “No, no, no, no. It’s based on need. It’s gender neutral.” And guys are like, “Really?” And I’m like, “Yeah, because the child support’s not for you. It’s for your kids. So go buy groceries for them or go buy sneakers for them. Don’t say, ‘I don’t need child support.’ Because you don’t get to say that. Your kids need it.” And that’s a weird message to have to share with people but it’s true.

ED: So if they hire you, can they hire you in lieu of going to a court-appointed mediator?

JOE: Oh, 100%. In fact we only do private mediation for that very reason. We don’t take court-appointed cases because of what you and I were talking about at the outset. Those folks have already entered the legal system. They’ve already laced up their gloves. They’re doing the thing in the middle of the ring just waiting for the bell. And I’m not, I’m at a point in my career where I don’t want to be the judge, the arbiter. I don’t want to be the referee. I want people who come in and are mediating because they want to put their kids first. They want to not burn the whole house down. And they want to preserve their money. They don’t want to spend it on legal fees and be able to sit down as two adults because quite frankly like I’m always about respectful communication and even if I get into an argument with a friend, even if it’s like a knock-down drag-out, I’m still watching my tongue because I still value this relationship, this friendship or in this case a co-parenting. This individual is still going to be in my life and by the way is going to be an influence on our children, my kids, our kids. So I don’t want that other individual thinking I’m a raving lunatic because they’re going to make my life difficult because they’re not going to want me to see the kids as much or they’re not going to be as flexible when I say, “Hey, could you cover on Friday because Joe asked me, can we go to the baseball game?” You want to have that. You want to be respectful because man, when you’re disrespectful, and I’m sure you can appreciate this, you’re really the only one who’s hurt by that because if you’re the one lashing out, something’s going on inside of you that you’re angry about and you’re trying to, and the other person’s like, “Okay, talk to you later.” They’re not thinking about you on the couch while they’re watching Netflix and having a beer. They’re just going on with their day and you’re at home seething and raging. And so you got to let that stuff go because it’s only killing you. It’s not killing them.

ED: One of the judges in my first divorce says to me, to us in court, the problem here is you two are both emotionally involved. And I’m thinking, no, I hate her. But he was right. It wasn’t love, it was hate at that point. And that just tore me up inside for many years. Of course, I get along fine with my exes now. They can come to the house if there’s a party or it’s no big deal. I don’t have any, once I relieved, I took that weight off my shoulders. I was much better off. But what you were just saying about that lashing out, that’s sales 101, right? That’s you get that email that you are like I can’t believe they just sent that and you start banging on the keys. My thing is you take four hours and don’t reply to that email until you get your head together. So I’ve had, we’ve had a hard time after COVID, we’re still trying to get our feet under us and I felt like there were some people that didn’t help me as much as I thought I helped them. And I get that feeling sometimes, that anxiety, and then I but I let it go and I’m like, there’s no value to me going after those people. So relating that to being a parent or being an ex-spouse or whatever, same thing. You got to bite your tongue sometimes and just let it go. First of all, after you’ve had eight kids like I have and raised two grandkids in addition, you find out that most is not as big a deal as you think. Imagine, if this person wants to, it’s just like, I don’t care, like I’m not coming over this weekend because my mom, I’m having to spend a night with my, I don’t care. Go ahead, spend a night with your friend. Doesn’t matter to me. It’s not going to change the trajectory of anything. This doesn’t matter. And I try to tell my kids this if they ask for advice, is I got news for you. My mom used to say, and I’ve said this a hundred times, say no as little as possible. And when you do say no, have a really good reason. Is there a safety issue? Is there something going on? Maybe you don’t know the parents, whatever it is. But it’s kind of the same way in those, hey, can they stay an extra week? I don’t care. Go ahead. Gives me time to do some stuff.

JOE: Yeah. You’re talking about communication and anger and feelings and things like that. So in mediation, in negotiation really, that’s what I am. I’m a professional negotiator. And I’ve thought after my mediation career, and I mean this in all sincerity, I might be a little old for the FBI, but I would love to be a hostage negotiator. And I’m not saying that in a flip way because these are individuals, they’ve got a story, they feel misunderstood, they feel not heard, and there’s a reason behind it. And I want to get to that reason. And that’s part of what in mediation with doing divorce is you’re trying to really get to the reason behind the reason. And often when people are lashing out, there’s something buried 1, 2, 3, 10 levels deep and it’s my job to keep digging until I hit that treasure. And one of the things that you hear a lot and what’s very rewarding in mediation is if you keep at it as a professional negotiator, if you keep at it, you get to that aha moment. And that’s what we all look for. That’s our dopamine hit where somebody’s ranting and raving about alimony and then somebody just blurts out, “When my dad left when I was five, we couldn’t celebrate Christmas. My mom was destitute and she had to work on Christmas Day.” And you’re like, “Oh, wow. Okay, we got it.” Air out of the balloon. We can get back to the conversation. But it’s something that comes way out of left field. And that’s part of when, if you can be the calm one in the communication process, even if somebody’s coming in hot, you can just keep asking those questions and just keep asking those questions calmly like the negotiators, the hostage people do. They don’t go, “You got to let those people go or I’m busting in there.” They’re like, “Hey, tell me what you need. What’s your name?” They’re keeping it calm. And that’s what we’re trying to do. And if you ever find yourself, you or any of the listeners find yourself in that situation, don’t escalate. I know it’s hard. Don’t escalate. Just ask a lot of questions. Keep the other person talking because eventually the truth is going to come out and that’s when you then engage. Wow, I never knew you felt like that. Or geez, I never knew that happened. That stinks.

ED: That’s a good parenting tip period to communicate with your kids. And one of my kind of flagship talks that I give when I’m doing public speaking is about trauma that you haven’t dealt with when you’re a leader and you have this trauma that you haven’t dealt with or whatever, and you’re not dealing with it and you’re trying to manage people, it manifests in bad behavior sometimes or erratic behavior or anger or sadness or whatever. So I encourage people to go back into your life and look for that trauma and deal with it. You don’t forget it. It’s like maybe you lost a parent or a dog or whatever, something that you’re still holding on to. You need to deal with those things and do some self-care before you can…

JOE: It’s the oxygen mask. Put the oxygen mask on before you can help your kids. Exactly.

ED: So in my limited time knowing you, and it’s funny because you decided on this time slot because we may go on longer than I’m thinking because I think I could talk to you for an hour.

JOE: You and I can hang out all day.

ED: Yeah. You have a very good temperament and I don’t know if it’s, thanks, whether you got it when you were raised or your education background, whatever it is, but I can see you in a position like that that would calm me down like if I was starting to get wound up and not patronizing, not being a patronizing person.

JOE: I appreciate that. Yeah.

ED: So we hope that none of our listeners have to go through this but this is a good idea for them that there’s an option out there. So you said something to me funny before the podcast about people that really got along well in the negotiation process, like spouses or whatever that maybe had kids or didn’t have kids and they kind of had it all worked out before they came and saw you and then when they’re done negotiating they go out to dinner. Does that happen often?

JOE: It happens not a lot but it happens often enough that it makes you scratch your head. And as far as life goes, I am a live and let live. I’m like, you want to shave your head and wear a diaper, knock yourself out. Like I’m not doing that, but you want to do that, go for it. I am just one of those people where I just want everybody to be happy and do your thing. And sometimes there’s things that are behind those relationships that we get to see in our space that the outside world might not see. And in many of those cases where the dinner is happening, perhaps this was a heterosexual couple and then one of the members of the marriage decided that they wanted to switch teams as the kids might say and then be in relationships of the same gender. And in those spaces there’s really like, well as the other spouse you might be mad at yourself like how did I not see this? But then on the other hand, you’re like, well, there’s nothing I could do about this because I’m male or female. I have the wrong parts here. So we see that a fair amount with that dynamic. But we’ve also seen folks where I think they’ve just had a hard enough time over the years that they’ve kind of come to this place of peace where they’ve said, we’ve tried the therapy, we’ve tried, we’ve raised good kids, we’ve tried separation, we’ve tried X, Y, and Z. You know what, I realize you’re still a great person. I’m a great person and we’re just going to go our separate ways, but we always want to be in each other’s lives. And that’s really nice to see. Because that to me, Ed, is mature level 10. It’s sort of like, what’s that song? There ain’t no good guy, there ain’t no bad guy. It’s just you and me and we just disagree. I forget who sings that. But that’s it. It’s like you just look at each other and go, you know what? No, I’m not doing this. We’re good people. We raised good kids or we had a good time for some of those years together and now it’s just time for us to go our separate ways and that takes a lot of work to do and a lot of maturity and so those are the folks that we see in those kinds of spaces.

ED: So one of the reasons I think my wife and I get along really good, and it’s not, this is not what this podcast is about, but for the listeners, you can take this for advice if you want. When we have a situation, when you have eight kids, stuff’s going to happen. It happens. And now we don’t have those kids. But we’re finding ourselves in this logistics tornado right now with how we get everybody where they’re supposed to go. And it’s only two kids now. It seemed easier when there was eight. But what my wife and I do is we go, “Okay, this is what needs to be done.” And we just do it together. Like I do what I can do, she does what she can do, and it always works out. And that’s, I feel good about that. That’s kind of how our whole marriage was. It was just like this is what has to be done, and we just need to do it together. Like we had five girls in four sports at one time. Well, you can do the math. That’s hard to get around on weekends. And all that stuff. So it could be a situation like that where people just decided at this point they’re going to move on and try some other thing. I don’t know. I’m a Catholic. We’re supposed to be married forever. Well, that didn’t work for me.

JOE: Yeah. Me too. Exactly. And I have some kids that have had relationship issues too. And it could have been derived from my immaturity when I was younger. I could have put that on them or whatever. But for the most part, they’re all doing great. But yeah, I don’t understand why the divorce rates are still so high. It’s probably preparation, they haven’t drawn out the expectations and then or those change over the years and they never revisit them. So I always tell salespeople there’s three rules in life. There’s expectations, communication, and discipline. So you got to draw out your expectations. This is what I expect from you, wife and husband, and then we have to communicate those because sometimes we have expectations we don’t tell the other person and they’re like not meeting our expectations and I’m like, well, they don’t know. That’s why they’re not meeting them.

JOE: Exactly.

ED: Then you got to have the discipline to do it. I told you I would mow the lawn on Saturday at 9:00, if that’s how petty it is. Mow the lawn on Saturday at 9:00. Don’t wait. Be a person of your word.

JOE: And that’s part of it, like when you were saying about being married and the divorce rate. One thing I wanted to comment is that it’s an interesting phenomenon. While the divorce rate is still high, what you’re noticing is the divorce rate is lower among couples in say their 30s and 40s and maybe early 50s. The divorce rate has really spiked in people, say, mid-50s through 60s and so like more baby boomer generation. And my take on that is that I’m a Gen Xer, born in ’68. So close to the boomer edge there. And so when you talk about people in that age bracket, they were raised in that nuclear family, that post-World War II, mom stayed home, dad went to work. So mom was the caretaker. And as society has evolved, and maybe for the better or not, the need for women to re-enter the workforce for dual incomes, for these kinds of marriages, I think folks who are in their 60s have been married for 30 years, say, for example, are looking back and saying, you know what? Those ideals that were instilled upon me when I was getting married in 1970 or whatever, they no longer really apply. I want to live my life. I want to do things. And what we’ve seen too, and this is an interesting dynamic among gray divorce. That’s the term that we use for older couples who are divorcing. What I’ve seen, Ed, is that because the wives were the primary caretakers, they worked inside the home because I know all the stuff I put my mom through. I’m an only child and I’m sure I put her through heck. She didn’t get paid nearly enough to deal with my nonsense. So she didn’t stay at home. She worked inside the home. And now these ladies, these women who are now in their 60s and 70s have said, I didn’t live the life of adventure. My husband worked and traveled for business and had his dinners and his two-martini lunches and all that stuff. And now he wants to sit on the couch because he’s tired. And that makes sense. He’s worked his whole life and now he just wants to read his book or play his golf and just hang out. Me, I’ve been sitting on that couch for 40 years. I want to get out there. I want to travel. I want to meet people. And so you’ve got this split. And that’s why a lot of these divorces are actually really amicable because they’re like, “Well, no problem. You want to go off and travel the world? Go for it. I’m going to be here reading my book and watching Golf Channel on TV.” And that’s what we’re seeing. That divorce rate is actually 75% in the gray divorce. Oh, wow. So three-quarters of those marriages are now ending in divorce. And our oldest client was 82.

ED: Now I’m thinking if you got to 82, I’m figuring, I mean, I hope this is right. Land the plane, man.

JOE: But this guy, he was a photographer. He wanted to go on safaris in Africa. I think his wife was like 76. And that was too dangerous. I’m not flying. I’m not doing it. And he’s like, “Well, I want to do it.” And he did. And so people want to live their lives and in that world, in that space, that’s where the divorce rate is highest. That’s kind of dragging up the average if you will. And so we’re seeing a lot of that happen and those divorces are usually very amicable because at that point they’ve both got the retirement stuff, they both got Social Security, they’re both just really just kind of coasting at this point, and they’re able to just kind of go their separate ways.

ED: Two things about that. My second marriage, I traveled a lot and it was, I would come home on Friday after being gone all week, and she’d say, “Hey, let’s go out to dinner.” I’m like, “Are you kidding? I can’t eat.” And it’s funny. I tell people this. They think I’m lying. After you eat Ruth’s Chris three times in a week, and then you go to Donovan’s, and blah blah blah blah. I want a hot dog. I don’t want to eat that rich food anymore. And she was jealous because I was out eating that food, but it wasn’t fun. It wasn’t bad traveling. I mean, I’d do it again if I had an opportunity, but I get that piece. But the other thing, you’re my wife’s age. So if you go and I see this on social media sometimes, they’ll give pictures of people your age when they were in a sitcom and they were like 40. Well, dude. I was at the gym at 5:00 this morning. I’m 63, out-working kids that are there and I have this podcast. I’m doing, I got this. I might write a book. I have all this stuff going on. 63-year-olds didn’t do that when we were baby boomers. So I have a super high level of energy that I’d match with anybody. It doesn’t matter. So, and my wife does too. So we’re cool. Where we want to, we both want to do the same things. That’s good.

JOE: Yeah, that’s important, that relationship compatibility. And that’s where we see longer life expectancy too. So if you were in that position 100 years ago and you were 65 and unhappy in your marriage, you’re probably going to be passing away within the next 5 to 7 years mathematically, maybe even shorter than that. Right now, age, if you’re going to the gym and being healthy, 80s, 90s, hundreds, that’s not a pipe dream anymore if you’re healthy.

ED: And there’s 10 other guys at the gym my age. I mean, I’m not the only one in there. So now you’re 65 and you’re like, if I got 30 more years on this planet, then I want to make sure that they count. I don’t want to be in an unhappy space. Well, it’s funny. Years ago, they would give you a window of your earning capability. I’m not even at my earning capability yet. I mean, I still have ways. Besides my lack of education, my work ethic and my ideas and what I’ve retained in my brain, all works and it’s functional. I haven’t made as much money as I’m ever going to make yet. I’m still heading towards that.

JOE: Look at some of these sportscasters that are in their 80s and you couldn’t even tell. It’s crazy. So I don’t want to get off track, but that’s really interesting. I didn’t know that that divorce rate was so high for older people. But you remember when our parents, they got old quick and they didn’t do, there wasn’t as much to do. There wasn’t, you couldn’t just go skiing or surfing or whatever when you were that age because you were too old.

Yeah. My dad, he was in construction, so he was a brick layer and he’s carrying bags of concrete. And then as he got in his career, he got to be more of the foreman. And then, like we were talking about before, then he didn’t go to school for it, but then he became an architect because he had so much experience building things that he could actually draw them as well. And he was a high school graduate. And these days he couldn’t do that. There’s no way. But yet somehow he still built hospitals and municipal complexes and they didn’t fall down. So, okay. But that’s that kind of manual labor which takes a toll on someone physically does also make sense. Lots of us in these kind of information jobs now, we’re getting soft in a different way. We’re sitting on our butts all day, but I’m not lugging 50-pound bags of concrete up and down four flights of stairs trying to put down a concrete floor. So I definitely have the ability to be active later in life as long as I keep myself in shape. And now I have the opposite problem where I have to make sure I look away from the screen every 20 minutes and get my butt out of the chair and not just drink 400 cups of coffee sitting here. But yeah, there’s that opportunity. And I think that’s part of life. Like you said before, I like what you said where when you were talking about you and your wife and about getting the girls to sports. I think a lot of times, Ed, people want validation. They want acknowledgement. Think about when we were little kids. What were you waiting for? Good job. Good job, Ed. Good job, Joe. Or the report card or the trophy from baseball. You always got accolades. And then as you got older, you didn’t get that anymore. And it kind of stinks. You don’t want a parade, but you’d like somebody to say thank you. And you and I, we were talking about this. All those rules that you learned in kindergarten, they also apply to a marriage. Please, thank you. You’re welcome. Could you please help me? It’s really not that hard when you think about it. But it’s really hard when you’re trying to get five girls to four different sports and you’re all just running around, but as an adult, it’s really just saying, “We’re going to just keep doing what we’re doing with one caveat.” And this would be my tip to the listeners on keeping your relationship together. Make sure that you acknowledge and validate what your spouse is doing. Even if, like in my house, for example, my wife Cheryl, her role is that she takes out the trash on Thursdays. That’s her quote-unquote job. So when she takes the trash out, it’s been for 22 years expected for her to take the trash out. She wheels the pails out and when she comes in, I say, “Hey babe, thanks for doing that.” And she’s like, “Oh, of course.” She goes, “It’s my job.” And I’m like, “No, I appreciate it.” She goes, “Thanks.” And that’s, it’s just a silly thing, but it’s an acknowledgement. And that, Ed, is what I think really keeps people together. And that’s what people forget to do. And that’s what leads them to my office is because they either take the other person for granted or they don’t recognize the role they’re contributing because they say, “Well, you stay at home all day with the kids.” And that other person’s like, “Oh, yeah. You try staying home for 30 days and see how well you fare.” So just simple stuff, man. Basic manners will get you 90% of the way there in my opinion.

ED: My first divorce, my mom says, “You know what? Just give her the kids all the time. She’ll have them back to you in two weeks.” Exactly. Do that. But looking back, I could do it now. I could get rid of kids like, vote them off the island. Yeah. But you’re right. And this is just I kind of think about social media, the picture it’s painting for our kids, and it’s not a realistic picture. It’s the same in professions. You see all these people that have all these billions of dollars. Half of them don’t have two cents to rub together. But what we’re seeing is that all these things are available to you, which I guess they are, but statistically it’s probably not going to, it’s like watching sports. If my son starts batting practice at two years old, he’ll be a professional baseball player by the time he’s 20. The odds are still one in a gazillion that this kid’s going to…

JOE: Oh, yeah. And we have clients like that. Yeah. We have those expectations for our spouse too that they’re going to have, I was watching this guy on social media the other day and he says, “You know when a girl wakes up on social media and she has makeup on, she set the camera up.” It’s not some camera came into her house and saying, “Oh my God, look how beautiful she is when she wakes up.” She’s a train wreck when she wakes up. Just like all of us.

ED: I have to lean on the wall and kind of drag myself against the wall sometimes. Get the shade open. Oh God, dog is crying. Needs to go outside. You’re like, “Okay, this is how my day’s starting.”

JOE: And I think that’s a good point, is like that’s what relationships are and acknowledging the reality, like you said, setting a good example that relationships are, getting a washcloth for your spouse when they’re sick and they’ve got a fever and you’re, they’re throwing up in the toilet and saying, “Do you need anything? Can I get you some tea?” Like that’s what’s happening too. It’s not all glamour shots and vacations and social media posts.

ED: Well, I tell you, I love your message. I really like you a lot. I think that we could do another podcast and even go a different direction because I feel like you have a lot of calming information for people just period. Like you could just be one of those guys, a go-to person in your negotiation dreams and things like that. I think that’s awesome. I think we gave the audience enough information about, first, the first rule is don’t get divorced. But we know that’s, avoid it if you can. Work on your marriage. Joe can find something else to do if nobody else gets divorced again.

JOE: I could be a hostage negotiator. Exactly. The dream will be, there’ll be hostages out there. Exactly. I think I’ll go take one now just to help.

ED: So one thing you keep saying and then we’ll wrap this thing up. You keep saying “us.” Do you have somebody else that is a mediator within your company?

JOE: So my wife is actually a divorce coach and so what we’ve been talking about…

ED: I didn’t know if you were talking about her.

JOE: Yeah. No, I’m the only mediator. She’s the coach and that’s, we work together and that’s exactly what our philosophy is. You got to handle the emotional stuff as well as the financial stuff and the tactical stuff and all the paperwork. People think divorce is just this single issue like parenting plan or what are we going to, we’re going to sell our house. It’s a whole amalgamation of stuff. And a big chunk of it, as we’ve been talking about, is that emotions. Get that under control before you ever step into my office or a lawyer’s office. Go to therapy. Go to couples counseling. Even if you’re not staying married, work on yourself to get yourself in a space and then you can enter the process. It’ll go a lot better. Trust me.

ED: So that’s a good question. And this is the danger of you and I talking because as soon as you say something, it brings up. How often do people reconcile after their mediation?

JOE: Very rare. We’ve only had two in our history because, oh wow. Like one of the things that you realize is that most people when they decide to divorce, it’s not a snap thing. Studies have shown it takes them a little over two years from the time there’s this inkling in their brain that goes, I think I might want a divorce to actually stepping into my office or a lawyer’s office. So they’ve been giving it some thought and if they haven’t, we actually don’t work with them. We actually say, you know what, thank you for reaching out, but we’re not interested. If we get a voicemail from someone at 2 in the morning saying, I want a divorce. We don’t call them back because they had a fight. They, whatever happened. Like maybe they do, but they really need to take it down and think about it and really process that. So yeah, reconciliation is pretty rare, but we do get people where if they come in, we do at least try to ask them, “Have you done everything you can to save the marriage? Have you done the work? Have you tried this?” And thankfully, most people have said, “Yeah, we decided in counseling.” Or, “Yeah, we’ve been going to counseling for a while.” Or, “I’ve been talking to my therapist and I broke it to my spouse.” So the good news is at least the folks we’re seeing, they are taking it serious and they are taking the time to really acknowledge and contemplate that decision before pulling that trigger.

ED: Yeah. I mean, so as far as my belief, you should get married and stay married. That’s just, that’s my religious background. That’s whatever. Now, not a good example since this is my third marriage, but I wish I would have taken more time up front and prepped a little bit more. And before I had kids, I wish I would have known a little bit more because you learn a lot when you have kids. And there’s no manual. There’s no manual for marriage either. Nope. I recommended that my kids get married when they were a little bit older. They didn’t do what I said, but that’s fine. It’s their life. They have to do what they have to do. And but by the same token, I don’t like seeing people unhappy in relationships. It could be verbally abusive, could be physically abusive. I don’t like that. And that is horrible for children. And I think that my kids, once I met my current wife and we were rolling along, I think that they became much happier in their lives because they were in a very structured, stable environment. Now I told you I was married for 5 and 7. So I was married 12, those 12 years I was the poster boy for what not to do, talking about their mom and things like that. I didn’t do it too much but I did it one time too much. So I really did not do a good job with that. And then I know it’s hard too, dude, because you just want to lash out.

JOE: Of course.

ED: But you got to grow up and not be stupid and keep it to yourself. So my wife and I, the first night we went out, we talked about our divorces. And what happened in our marriages and stuff like that and it was humorous because we were pretty much over it, but it was also daunting because we had to deal with it for a couple years, her and I, and she had to deal with him and I had to deal with her and kind of things. But like I said, looking back, I could have done a hundred things differently. And that’s why I’m hoping that people listening to this, if they unfortunately find themselves in this situation, they know they have an alternative.

JOE: Yeah. Exactly. You can always try mediation because if mediation with us doesn’t work then you can get a lawyer. You can enter the court system. You can do that. But we always say, look, you’ve seen our website, you know what our case resolution rate is. If I said to you, here’s a lottery ticket. There’s a 98% chance you’re going to win, but it’s going to cost you $1,000 to play. I would take that bet. I’d buy that ticket because if I didn’t win this time, I’d know I’d win next time. At 98%, the odds are definitely in my favor. And not that getting a divorce is like winning the lottery, but it’s still the same concept of your odds are really stacked in your favor that you’re going to get through this peacefully, cost-effectively, and not destroy your life. Why not take that bet? And people are still, they still want to go fight. And those are the folks, Ed, who you’re never going to convince them because they haven’t done the work to say, “Yeah, I don’t want to ruin my life, my kids’ life, my ex-spouse’s life. I’m just going to burn it to the ground.” Okay, go for it. I’m, sorry, that’s kind of common sense and business 101, but we know, I used to say common sense isn’t common.

ED: No. Well, Joe, I think that we’ll wrap this up and we’ll talk another time. Stay on the line. I’m going to do an outro, but I will put Joe’s information in the description and it’s equitablemediation.com basically. Or you can put Joe Dillon Mediator in and you’ll find him because I did that this morning. So great guest, great information, great temperament. I just like your style.

JOE: Thanks, Ed. I appreciate it, man. Thank you.

ED: So listeners, thank you for listening. Keep sharing my podcast. Keep liking it. Keep looking at the clips. If you go to my YouTube channel, please follow me. It’s edfranklin.nolimits. Raising 10 podcast is in my playlist. And you can always get ahold of me if you have a guest or you want to be a guest. It’s edfranklin.nolimits@gmail.com. And thank you for listening. Share, share, share. And keep watching. There’s a lot more to come.

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Divorce triggers powerful emotions that can derail even the most well-intentioned negotiations. In this conversation, divorce mediator Joe Dillon and divorce coach Cheryl Dillon explore the common emotional landmines couples face during mediation and share practical strategies for managing them.

Cheryl discusses frequent triggers like alimony resentment, infidelity, and asset disputes, while explaining her coaching approach to help clients identify what’s really driving their reactions. You’ll learn about the importance of pausing before reacting, reframing difficult situations, and understanding the “position behind the position” that’s fueling conflict.

Joe and Cheryl also address how modern stressors like economic uncertainty, political division, and constant digital connectivity are making divorce negotiations more challenging than ever.

Whether you’re considering divorce or in the middle of the process, this discussion offers valuable insights into managing your emotions so you can reach a fair and equitable outcome.

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Disclaimer

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Anything discussed in this podcast should not be construed as legal, financial, or emotional advice. It is for informational purposes only. If you are in need of such advice you MUST seek the guidance of a qualified professional where you live.

The episode transcript below was auto generated and may contain errors.

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Managing Emotions in Divorce Podcast Transcript

Joe Dillon: Hello everybody. I’m Joe Dillon of Equitable Mediation Services and with me today is Cheryl Dillon from Equitable Mediation Services. That’s right, Cheryl. In case you haven’t figured out since we share the same last name, she’s my wife and also my partner here in the two-person team of Equitable Mediation. Today we’re going to be talking about your emotions, how they can derail the divorce process.

To kick things off, I usually like to think of myself as the most important person in the divorce process, thinking I help with the negotiations, with the finances, with the child support, the alimony, the property division, the parenting plan, draft up all this paperwork. But truly, at the end of the day, I couldn’t do my job without Cheryl’s help. Because really, it’s emotions that drive the divorce process. So today we’re going to spend a little bit of time talking about that and how emotions can either help or hurt the divorce process.

Cheryl, the first question I have for you since you’ve coached a lot of our clients: what are the common emotional triggers that crop up for people when you’re working with them during mediation?

Cheryl Dillon: I think one of the common ones is when I’m coaching with a spouse who will be paying some kind of alimony. There are all different kinds of stories or things that are going on for people, but a recent one is that this person worked throughout the whole marriage, aspired to grow her career, move up the ladder, be promoted, make more money to support the family. There was the expectation that her spouse would be doing the same thing. They both have the same level of education. They both had the same level of opportunities to advance their careers. One person did and one person didn’t. It wasn’t that the other person who didn’t was home caring for children because this primary bread winner also was the primary caregiver to the children.

Joe Dillon: Oh no. I can see why that’s a problem.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. They really felt, you know, they did their part. They took on the lion’s share of the home and employment responsibilities and now that they’re divorcing they would be paying their spouse alimony and it really is a really emotionally triggering issue for people for a lot of different reasons. One is fairness. That’s an undercurrent. That’s not fair. Another is really just a lot of resentment and disappointment. So I would say, you know, of course there are many different things that come up for people. This is just one example, but this is a common one.

Joe Dillon: All right. I wanted to point something out. If I heard you correctly, you said her. I believe it’s a common misconception that only women receive alimony. In your example, if I heard you correctly, and of course this is confidential when you coach with clients, so we don’t want to know who it is, of course, but if I heard you correctly, it sounds like the wife in this marriage was the primary bread winner.

Cheryl Dillon: That’s correct. Yeah. And by the way, that’s really common. In the 15 years that I’ve been coaching, this is a very common topic. So it’s not limited just to the husband as the primary bread winner. More and more I’m hearing these types of stories from women who are the primary breadwinners.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. And that’s a good point, right? Because fairness is in the eye of the beholder. So it doesn’t matter what your gender is. If you went out and busted your butt and built your career and then wow just what you told me like then on top of that you also took care of the house. It’s different if you were to divide and conquer. Maybe someone would feel like well I’m out there working outside the home but my spouse is working inside the home. It sounded like this spouse was working both outside and inside the home and I could see how that would be upsetting for them.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. It’s not that the husband didn’t do anything to contribute. They also worked and spent some time with the children. But what’s coming up a lot is that these women are saying I did the lion’s share. I took care of everything and now I’m going to have to pay. So now I’ve been paying and now I’m going to have to pay.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. This is an interesting transition into the mediation space because mediation is all about whatever the parties deem to be fair and equitable. People have often commented in our sessions. I know you’re not actively involved in the mediation. Like I’m not actively involved in the coaching, but they always say, “Joe, we really appreciated the name of your company, Equitable Mediation. That’s all we ever wanted, something fair and equitable. Maybe not 50/50. Maybe I do have to pay alimony. Maybe I don’t, but I just want to have a conversation about it. I want to feel heard. I want to share with you why I may think I should or shouldn’t pay this and explain a little bit about where we got to and how we got there.”

So mediation does allow you to have those conversations and if both parties agree that maybe, hey, you know what, my spouse is correct. I did have the same opportunities. I can waive my right to alimony. And of course, I’m going to take them through our process to make sure they fully understand what that means. But that’s a conversation they can have, right? So that goes to fairness. What are some of the other things that you hear from people emotionally? You know, definitely the alimony. Absolutely. Primary bread winner. What are some other things you can think about?

Cheryl Dillon: Well, a lot of it is also alimony, but there are different situations. Well, unfortunately, you know, infidelity is a topic that comes up. It leads people to divorce or it’s a symptom that gets people to divorce. So it’s the same kind of thing. Somebody will say, “My spouse cheated on me and now I have to pay them alimony, right?” So that’s got to be a stick in the eye.

Joe Dillon: Yeah.

Cheryl Dillon: So I think some other things are with assets and maybe one spouse came into the marriage with pretty significant assets or maybe they had more in their 401k or they had purchased a house. Basically maybe they paid off all their own student loan debts and now they get married and now their spouse has some student loan debts or didn’t have good credit or didn’t have the same kind of assets that they did coming in. Obviously, you know, they’re in love and they’re a team and there’s no keeping tally of will you owe me this, but when it comes to now it’s a divorce and then that other spouse wants half of everything or doesn’t want to factor in that the other spouse maybe had more things or brought more in. It’s really, it’s not about everything having to be 50/50, but I think a lot of times if it’s the spouse who did come in with a lot of advantages there that it’s again unfair that their spouse wants half.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. Whatever they ultimately negotiate in mediation, of course, it doesn’t necessarily have to be where you’re cutting everything in the middle, but I think what’s really getting them is when their spouse is saying to them that there’s an expectation that they’re going to get half or if their spouse is more than half.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. That’s a really tough one.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. “Entitled to” was like you might as well just light the fuse on the stick of dynamite when someone says I’m entitled to this, right? It’s like, no, you’re entitled to have a conversation. There’s no magic rule book that says, “Hey, turn to page 704, and that’s exactly what you’re entitled to.” So how do you talk those people off the ledge as a coach? How do you say to them, “Look, if you I know you might be upset about this, but what’s your alternative?” Or how do you help them manage those emotions so that when they get in my space, they’re actually able to be cooperative and have a productive negotiation?

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. Well, I don’t know if it gets productive. Hopefully, it is on your end because I have no idea. You’re working your magic, whatever you’re doing. So thank you. I mean, honestly, it’s different for everybody. What I try to do is sometimes I’ll first of all point out the value that’s being taken out of their integrity. What’s the root of what’s happening for them? It’s not about the tangible things. It’s like what’s really going on for you that’s making you be triggered or that’s causing you to feel this way. So I try to help them uncover that first.

First of all, by doing that, it gives the other person like validation that someone else helped them acknowledge that that really sucks or that, you know, you’re right. That’s not fair, right? Is it just me that feels this way? So to really kind of bring up like what is the value that is being dishonored that’s taking them out of their integrity? Where’s the trigger? And then from there, again not everybody can do it and it’s different for everybody that I coach with but after validating that because it is, you know, and sometimes it’s more than one value that’s being triggered and it’s basically acknowledging all of them but also trying to identify the biggest one, the most important one that comes to the top.

And then helping them kind of reframe like what’s another way of looking at that. And these are hard because first of all the way they’re feeling is very disempowering. You know, they feel like something is happening to them that’s out of their control. And so if we can kind of talk about what the trigger is, how it’s making them feel or react, where they’re feeling it in their body, because again, when you’re feeling triggered, there are like physical things that are happening. Maybe you’re sweating or your heart is racing or you know the hair standing up on the back of your neck, right? And so it’s really trying to like, yeah. It’s like connecting what’s happening for you and usually such a default it just happens automatically and then the next thing you know you’re all spun up and you’re flooded out like you can’t focus and you can’t have a rational you just you’re out of control.

And so to help them kind of cope with those things, those are some of the things that I do is identify what’s the trigger, what’s causing it, what’s really going on for them. How are they, what are the hints that that’s starting to happen for them, and then teaching them how to take a breath and catch it before it spins out. And because if you can have an awareness of it, then you can have some strategies to deal with it in a better way.

So, and then of course, you know, I don’t want to and it kind of goes on from there. We work on what are some things we can do after we take that pause. And sometimes taking the pause, you know, you have to practice that over and over and over again because it’s not natural, but it’s just catching it. And then even if you’re even if on a piece of paper you’re writing down the things to do afterwards, like you’re just trying to make it more of a regular natural response.

Then on the other side, when we start to talk about like how do they actually deal with the reality of what’s happening, then we do some reframing. So if we can come up with what are five different ways of looking at that same situation of what could be going on and then which one is most powerful for you which one keeps you in your integrity. For example, you know, the person who was the primary bread winner who did all the work with the kids who did all the work advancing her career, now she’s got to pay alimony. We talk about things like how bad about themselves their spouse might be feeling that they might be beating themselves up.

Joe Dillon: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Put yourself in their shoes kind of thing.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. So it’s not just about like, oh, poor husband, you know, but in other words, we’re coming up with all kinds of other possible scenarios for what could be happening because then they can choose what they’re going to believe and grab on to that’s most empowering to them. And when they have the benefit of reframing it that way, a lot of times, first of all, it alleviates a lot of the resentment and the feelings that are kind of really making them not feel so good. And it also enables them to interact with their spouse in a more empowering way or compassionate way.

And again, this isn’t, it isn’t about necessarily forgiving. It isn’t necessarily about, it’s not about any of that. It’s just about the person who’s feeling triggered and helping them not be triggered and to keep themselves. Does that make sense?

Joe Dillon: Yeah. It sounds like sometimes it’s sort of the difference between why does this happen to me, right? And in this example, like when I’m listening to you, the person in your example who’s the one who’s really triggered, they must be thinking to themselves, man, you know, what’s wrong with me? Or I can’t believe that. Yeah, it’s all about me, me, me, me. And then, as you what I thought was really wise, what you said is you shift your focus now. You shift your focus to the other person. And it’s not that you’re blaming them. It’s not that you’re redirecting your anger. It’s just, yeah, let me see if I can figure this out.

A good example which I wanted to bring up is in negotiation. So naturally that’s what I do professionally and what we are talking about here has a lot in common with negotiation. So there is a phrase that we use called conversational jujitsu. And I know you’ve heard me talk about this occasionally where you’re in a conversation right you’re in a negotiation and then suddenly one person is actually moving it forward and getting what it is they want. You think to yourself wow how does that person do it? And that’s what it is.

And the one key thing that you’re talking about which I think would be good for our viewers here is you’re trying to find the position behind the position. So right there’s that surface thing that’s coming at us that trigger that like you were saying that I’m angry or my hair is standing up. But then when you go to that next level and you get into that position behind the position well let’s dig deeper and let’s see what it is that’s really making me feel this way. Like in our world, why is this person asking for alimony? They’re afraid they’re going to be homeless and not have a house for their kids, right? Not because in my world, that would be the example. Not that they’re, oh, well, I’m entitled to alimony. It’s that I don’t want to live over a pizza place near a railroad track, right? I want to have a home that I’m proud my children can come to, so I’m maybe even ashamed to admit it, but I need some help and that’s why I’m asking for alimony. So that it sounds kind of like a similar situation.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. And sometimes, you know, I’m not a therapist and I’m not qualified to talk about some of that stuff that therapists are really best people to talk to about certain past things in childhood. But sometimes what’s triggering the spouse is a reminder of something that happened to them when they were growing up or something they saw with their parents. And so maybe it’s an interaction they had with their parent. There’s some family dynamic. There’s something that’s happening for them where they’re being triggered and it’s sometimes blowing way out of proportion because it doesn’t really have to do with what’s happening right now. It has to do with something that kind of happened in the past or was unresolved. We all do that by the way just so if anybody’s listening.

Joe Dillon: Yeah.

Cheryl Dillon: Or you know where or sometimes they’re hearing their spouse’s words and they’re putting a different context on it. Yeah. The words could be spoken but they’re putting the meaning on the words and they’re putting the meaning in a way again that’s triggering them and taking them out of their integrity. Whereas if they had the benefit of kind of delaying that kind of a reaction, taking the breath or having something that kind of reminds them, okay, let me take a walk or let me, you know, I need to just kind of like stay calm and really think about this more rationally. They’ll they can realize that what they’re hearing and what the meaning that they’re putting on it might not exactly be what their spouse is intending for the words to mean.

So it’s interesting. I mean, of course, divorce, you know, people are not at their best and people feel defensive a lot of times. They don’t trust their spouse. They have their backup. So, you know, it makes perfect sense all this stuff is happening. But unfortunately, if you don’t deal with these kinds of things, the divorce could take a pretty nasty turn and it will be a lose-lose for everybody, including that angry spouse.

Joe Dillon: Yeah, last question for you. You know, given that we’ve been practicing since 2008, we’ve seen a lot and we’ve been through a lot of economic times, political times, world geopolitical times. Have you seen a difference in either the behavior of your clients or the issues that they bring up over the course of your time working with them? You know, I myself, for example, have noticed that focus is very difficult to come by now. It’s more difficult to get clients to complete discovery. Their negotiations seem to be a bit more heated than they used to be from economic pressures and when we do budgets. So I’m curious to see if that at all has affected the folks that you work with.

Cheryl Dillon: Yes, I’d say so. You know, I think that what’s happening in the economy and what’s happening with politics, you can’t help but have it affect your life. And even if you’re not reading the news all day or even though, you know, maybe you’re not watching your bank account all day, you’re aware that maybe the climate isn’t so happy right now and that people are really divided. They feel divided. You know, I know that I don’t like to talk about politics in public, but there’s a lot that’s making us feel really scared and upset. There’s a lot of things that are unsettled. No matter what beliefs you have, it’s just right, just feels different right now in the world.

And so I think that people are that level of stress is just getting compounded with the divorce. So now you’re just dealing with situations where people they’re just fried and overwhelmed and exhausted. So that’s an issue. I think also social media being just so addicted to the phone and always, you know, checking the phone or the phone is chiming or like they’re on alert with their work. Like you know, you used to go to work and when you went home you were done and now it doesn’t stop, right? So that affects sometimes scheduling the sessions or having people be fully present during the sessions. It affects what’s happening for them again the distraction.

And I think that just all of these things is creating situations where even though people want the help and even though people don’t like how they’re feeling, right, they don’t know how to get out of it. So they’re just too tired to do something about it.

Joe Dillon: It sounds like, yeah. You know, it’s a lot. Things are pretty heavy. So it’s a lot.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. And then also, I think with respect to the sessions and what we’re talking about, some of the things we’re talking about are things that we never talked about ever before, you know, when we started out. They just weren’t problems back then, you know.

Joe Dillon: Right. Yeah. Is AI gonna take my job? Right.

Cheryl Dillon: Yeah. Yep.

Joe Dillon: Oh my goodness. Well, I appreciate the time talking here today. And for our listeners, if you’re new to visiting with us here, Cheryl and I, we plan on doing these podcasts here to hopefully give you some value and give you some insight. I don’t want you to feel so alone when you’re in the divorce process. A lot of times when you go through this, even though many people get a divorce, sometimes you can feel like the only person going through it. So we want to hopefully support you with some candid, real conversations of the things that we’ve seen and we’ve heard from our clients because if you’re thinking or feeling those same things, you’re not alone. Until next time, I’m Joe Dillon.

Cheryl Dillon: I’m Cheryl Dillon.

Joe Dillon: All right, there you go. And thanks for joining us here on the Equitable Mediation Podcast. Take care.

Cheryl Dillon: Thanks.

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In this episode of Never in Reverse Podcast, host Jeremy Axel and I explore the biggest misconceptions surrounding divorce and why mediation offers a better path forward. Drawing on 17 years of experience helping couples navigate separation, I discuss how mediation empowers families to make emotionally and financially sound decisions outside the adversarial courtroom system. We cover the importance of integrity in conflict resolution, the role of prenuptial agreements, how AI may impact the field, and practical advice for couples facing divorce.

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Disclaimer

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Anything discussed in this podcast should not be construed as legal, financial, or emotional advice. It is for informational purposes only. If you are in need of such advice you MUST seek the guidance of a qualified professional where you live.

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Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

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The Biggest Misconception About Divorce

Jeremy Axel: What’s the biggest misconception that our society has put on our culture around what divorce truly is?

Joe Dillon: Number one is that it has to be a knockdown dragout battle. That it has to be where you just light the powder keg and blow the thing up.

Introduction

Meet Joe Dillon, a pioneer in divorce mediation who’s been helping couples end their marriages with dignity and financial clarity for over 17 years. As a co-founder of Equitable Mediation Services, Joe combines his MBA in finance and specialized training from Harvard, MIT and Northwestern University to guide couples towards emotionally and financially sound agreements. Joe brings personal empathy and professional expertise to his work, helping couples focus on creating agreements that truly work for everyone. Beyond mediation, Joe is a devoted husband, dad, dog owner, and community caretaker passionate about service, food, and music.

Jeremy: Hey everybody, welcome back to Never in Reverse podcast. I’m your host Jeremy Axel. Today we’re diving into a new series, the guest series. We have a very special guest coming on. The gentleman, his name is Joe Dillon. Welcome to the show, Joe.

Joe: Hey, thanks for having me, Jeremy. Looking forward to talking to you.

Jeremy: Yeah, man. Where are you located today?

Joe: San Diego. Beautiful Southern California. But I paid my dues. Originally from the east coast and then spent some time in Chicago. So I’ve earned this weather.

Jeremy: Is that where you live now?

Joe: Yeah. My wife wanted to move out here her whole life and by nature I’m a city guy, but it’s pretty hard to complain in January when you’re sitting outside and you go, “Oh, I need a sweatshirt.” So it’s actually very nice.

Jeremy: The vibes, man. I was in San Diego for a trade show and it’s just such a perfect blend of a city that’s chill, but you get access points to every cool thing.

Joe: Absolutely.

Jeremy: Well, viewers, we’re going to dive into a very unique topic that’s kind of very close to me today. Joe’s with Equitable Mediation Services. Joe, mediation services can bring up some kind of flaring perspective for our viewers to dive and listen to today. What is one thing of why they should tune in? Give me one reason.

Joe: Well, you’ll learn a lot today. I hope that, you know, there’s conflict and there’s compromise. And if you choose to look forward as opposed to reverse and you focus on, hey, how can we solve this together? How can we move forward? You’d be surprised at how well even parties at opposite ends of the spectrum can work together. So I hope I share a little bit of that perspective and be able to give people some tips on just how to incorporate that in their own personal and professional lives.

Joe’s Background and Credentials

Jeremy: And Joe, your background is in finance. And you flipped from finance to mediation. That is like a big jump. Can you give the viewers where you came from? It looks like you went through some courses at Harvard, MIT. You have some certificates or specialized credentials there. Can you give them some authority around that for you?

Joe: Yeah, certainly. So when I was working in corporate, I was in publishing companies and I was working in the finance sales finance department. I was a director and what would happen is I was finding myself actually mediating. So I had both the legal department and the sales department reporting to me. If you know anything about salespeople, they want to do anything they can to make the sale. They don’t care what the terms are. They just want their commission check. When can we process this order? The legal department, on the other hand, says, “No, I’m sorry. There’s a comma out of place. This deal has to die.”

And so here I am now. You’re getting the salespeople going, “But Joe, my commission, I got to make my fourth quarter numbers.” And the legal department going, “Hold on, we need to talk to somebody.” And I found myself in the middle of the client, the customer in this case. These are multi-million dollar subscriptions for technical publications, and they’re just like, “Listen, Joe, we want to give you $30 million. Could you just figure this out on your end?” And I’m trying to mediate between the sales folks, the legal department, the customer who’s going, “When can we get this product or we’re going to take our ball and go home?”

And I found out that I really enjoyed being that sort of neutral, that peacemaker. Trying to make things happen, getting both sides to give a little, get a little, and make, in this case, the customer happy. So it kind of became a natural evolution when I thought about working for a large company that downsized. I said, “Well, what am I going to do next here?”

And of all people, my mother-in-law said, “I think you’d make a good mediator.” And I’m like, “What the heck is that?” This is like 2007 or 2006. She’s like, “Well, you know, you got this numbers thing. I have a friend who mediates. Maybe you should talk to her.” So I did. I learned more about it and I said, “Well, when you think about divorce, not to be coy about it, but really it’s a financial contract with a parenting plan.” And that’s where, you know, MBA in finance, a lot of high stakes negotiations. I’m like, well, this is right up my alley. Not to mention, my parents litigated their divorce, so they did the opposite of what I like to do, which is keep people out of court.

Personal Experiences with Divorce

Jeremy: In a weird way, it’s like, dude, mine was a verbal beatdown. I was young and I think I don’t know if you watched our episode before, we had a topic on this discussion just around that. It’s like there’s an arc to this. And I think that we all lose sight of that inside of our emotional self. So we’re not safe. So we all dive into this deep level of inherent disruption that there’s no art in it. And I see it all the time. I’m seeing it in some friends right now. There’s no art and integrity in the process. They’re just, and we’ll dive into that a little bit later in the episode, but I just think there’s this structure that I’m curious to learn about. I’m excited to hear from you.

So your parents have gone through divorce and you were able to see that firsthand. Probably the opposite route of hopefully that you want to give the viewers. Because that probably created some structure in you that is probably still with you today, I got to assume. On an emotional level. We all kind of face certain things in life and divorce structure could be very interesting at times and it comes up in different ways as you get older. It does for me anyways, especially in relationships, whether they’re friendships, romantic relationships, that you view it as a battle, as I have to win, you have to lose.

Joe: And when you get out of that win-lose mindset, as cliche as it sounds, it really changes your whole perspective about how can we both walk away from this feeling good? Because we can expand the pie. We can each walk away with something. We can each be happy. And at the end of the day, it also didn’t destroy us internally like you said, Jeremy. It’s just like what’s it doing? You’re the only one who’s upset. The other person walked away from this argument and you’re just still seething. And the other folks are like, “I got to go, dude. You know, like you go deal with yourself.”

Jeremy: And there’s nothing left at the end of it. Depending which direction people go, man. I see people in this process currently and they’re taking different approaches and it’s very painful to watch but it’s unique because everyone’s perspective of what they bring to the table, it can bring cruelty, it can bring a lot of resentment, all these things that we’ll dive into.

But one thing I’m just curious, you know, we’ve talked about a bunch of personal things on this podcast. How did you find us?

Joe: Yeah. So I like to walk and so one of the things I do, I’m always in Spotify and I’m flipping through podcasts and I randomly came across you guys. So I’m like, you know, and it’s funny because we all have our people that we listen to. But then sometimes it’s like, yeah, you know, I haven’t listened to this one for a while, so let me just poke this on during the workday. So I’ll put, you know, you guys, I have like this whole in my Spotify favorites, I have this whole list of kind of things. And you know, I float in and out. So I might listen for a little bit of this, a little bit of that.

And like I said, what really just, you know, sometimes it’s as simple as a title, a thumbnail like on YouTube, and I was like, wow, you know, this is my mantra. This is mediation’s mantra. Mediation is a forward-looking process, never in reverse. So that’s how I came to you guys. And I was like, okay, this is really, what is going on here? I was like, I might know this guy. Like I feel like I know this guy.

Jeremy: And then you listen to me probably beat Doug down and like, “Dude, I’m out of here. I take that email back.”

Joe: That’s all right. He deserves it. I’m sure. I’m sure he’s done something. Not that I know, but I’m sure he’s done something.

Jeremy: Oh, no. It’s daily. 24 years worth. But all right. Thanks for sharing that. All right. So guys, we’re going to dive into Joe’s expertise, and I’m super excited to learn about what your experience is with all the probably the perspective that you’ve gone through with your clients and maybe some personal stuff. The emotional landscape of divorce is kind of like it could be beautiful. I think it’s an art, man. It can be done very well.

Joe: Yeah, it can be done very elegantly, strategically, safe.

What Led Joe to This Work

Jeremy: I want to just have you dive into what led you to this work. That’s what led you here besides just being the mediator with what you shared. What else? What was the passion? I mean, this is a big jump from sales and legal and being in the middle to this. That’s a whole different animal.

Joe: Yeah. I think a lot of it, you know, one of the things, if you haven’t been under a rock lately you probably noticed that the world is kind of on fire. Everybody is screaming and yelling at each other and nobody’s really listening. No one’s hearing the other person. And at the end of the day if you really sit down and listen and you think about who that person is, there’s really a lot of commonality. We’re a lot more alike than we are different.

Now let me share a personal story. I was sitting in a restaurant. I was traveling at the time and I’m sitting in a restaurant in Hong Kong and it’s a Friday night. It’s the night before I’m about to fly home. I’ve been gone for three weeks and I’m just exhausted. I’m sitting there in this restaurant and I’m thinking to myself, man, I can’t wait to get home and get a burger because, you know, this food’s good and all, but I’m tired of eating eel and sea urchin and all this stuff. It’s delicious, but you know.

So I’m sitting there and I’m looking around and I kid you not, I could have been in an American restaurant on a Friday night. There’s a table of girls all giggling, pointing at a table of boys. There’s a young couple with a baby like playing peekaboo. So now I’m playing peekaboo with the little kid. Nobody speaks my language. I look a lot different than everyone else. There’s an older couple. They’re just enjoying their soup, just sitting there quietly. And I’m thinking to myself, oh man, this is like back in 99 or 2000, whatever this was. And I’m just like, man, you know what? People are really all the same. Look, here I am literally halfway around the world and it is the exact same thing that would be happening in America on a Friday night.

And I took that lesson with me and I said, you know, I’m going to make a conscious effort to start looking for commonalities, for similarities, for bringing people together rather than pushing them apart. Because man, at the end of the day, I’ve met some nice people no matter where I’ve gone. We’ve had political differences, religious differences, zealous conversations, but then they’ve had me over their home for dinner. And you’re just like, that can happen if you’re willing to do that.

That’s what mediation does for you. It says, look, let’s treat you as a human. Let’s look at you as a person. Let’s figure out what we’re both interested in achieving here rather than digging into our positions. And that really was kind of the touchstone moment for me which then brought me forward into these situations with divorce to say look you’re going to co-parent, you’re going to go on to marry other people. I want you to leave this space as good, in air quotes, as possible so that you can go on and continue to be positive and productive. And I really bring that to people because it’s going to burn them if they don’t. If they’re not careful, they’re just going to drag themselves down for the rest of their lives. And man, if we only got one spin on this planet, I want to make sure it’s a good one. I don’t want to burn my life down worried about it. So that was the defining moment for me.

Jeremy: Yeah. And it’s funny that you bring that out. I got a friend of mine here in Denver and he has a nonprofit and it’s called The Longest Table, a mile long, all strangers eating at the same table. It’s great. And you just show up as you are. No phones, don’t bring any of that. Just get together. And they just did one in Littleton as well. I think they ended up getting a little over 3,000. They didn’t quite get to 5,480. They’re basically trying to get a mile long of, you know, 5,480. That’s their goal for a mile. So but good for him in his first year, man. And I was so proud of him to dig into that.

And really, what you’re saying is just everyone, we’re all the same, man. Like, take away everything and when we’re buried six feet deep, man, we’re all going to the same place. And if you keep the perspective of that. And I think that situationally sometimes things happen and we kind of bring in a lot of baggage during moments. I do. I can attest to there’s times that I do that and I’m working through that too. Like how I show up in my marriage and how I show up to my team and my family, everything.

And if you weren’t given the tools, man, later in life, I’m kind of in that process right now, like how do I get better at that stuff?

Misconceptions About Divorce

Jeremy: What are your, for viewers, what’s the biggest misconception that our society has put on our culture around misconceptions of what divorce truly is and what it means?

Joe: Oh yeah. Number one is that it has to be a knockdown dragout battle. That it has to be where you just light the powder keg, blow the thing up. You can have an amicable divorce. I know it sounds like jumbo shrimp. It’s like what the hell does that mean, but it is possible. And that I think is a big misconception.

Another one is that there’s some magic rule book that says here’s what you’re entitled to. States have, you know, they have like guidelines or statutes, but you can still deviate from them. I think a lot of people are very surprised to find out that the judges are overwhelmed. Since the pandemic, if statistics are to be believed, courts are short staffed by 40%. The staff just never came back.

Now you’re a judge. You’ve got cases piled on top of you. You don’t want to listen to people screaming and yelling at each other. You want them settling and getting out. You want to empower them to do what they think is best. And that’s also what mediation does. It says, “Look guys, you can go and have a stranger decide your fate or you can figure out what’s best for you and your family and make the judge happy.” And they’re like, “Great, this looks good. Stamp, go to window five and pick up your copy.”

And it’s not that you want to discount the divorce process because it’s a serious process, but you want people to understand it doesn’t have to be battle. You’re in control. You’re empowered. And that’s what the courts want you to do. So that’s the message to people out there. It’s in your hands. You have a lot more control than you think.

Jeremy: Yeah. And I think that you know, I haven’t experienced it yet. And I never will. I hope. But I just think we’ve been taught that you’re exactly right, that drag down battle and that’s how my experience was seen at a young age. I remember parts of it. And I think that you know from an overall perspective where you can help jump in and fit in. I think that that’s kind of a beautiful position. We’re not jumping right into the court system where you’re basically now trapped into this process until the test of time until the person basically taps out. There’s typically, I’m sure, someone’s tapping out. Like at some point someone’s just like there’s nothing either financially there’s nothing left to give. There’s emotionally nothing left to give.

And I’m seeing that with people that I surround myself in life right now in some groups I’m in and I’m just watching these people that are going through these processes and it’s just there’s nothing left in them. They’re almost like a skeleton. And how are you any good to somebody else then? If you have no battery left, you can’t be a good friend. You can’t be a good husband or wife, coworker.

Joe: And I think the important point, Jeremy, is that people fail consistently to protect themselves. We all have to say no. We have to learn to say, “Listen, I can’t do that. I’d love to go out with you on Friday, but I’m just tired.” And that’s okay. By recharging those batteries, it gives us more energy to make better decisions and to recognize, like we’ve been talking about, like, “Am I really in a good headspace to have this conversation or should I just tap out and just go, listen, I hope you understand. I really can’t have this conversation right now, but I promise we’ll pick it up some other time because if I have it now, it’s not going to go well.”

Jeremy: And that in that space is, I think that’s just kind of the integrity position of divorce and what that looks like and approaching these things with a keen heart. That’s integrity based. Not every relationship is meant to work. It’s not, you know, I know that we all desire that intimacy. But I think that there’s stages in this and I think that the integrity around going through something in divorce is like you can help kind of facilitate that if they’re open to it. Like is that where you come in? So you’re not just going strictly to court. You’re kind of given this nice buffer zone before critical decisions are made. Like, “Hey, let me come in and bridge some gaps that you might not be seeing because you’re emotionally distracted or you got anger that’s kind of captivating in a tunnel. You got tunnel vision.”

Like, I know what that feels like. What does it look like for you from like do you come in and kind of help on the integrity around maybe discrepancies in divorce or heading that direction? Where do you fit in on the process?

The Mediation Process

Joe: Yeah. So it’s a great question. It’s funny. When I talk to prospective clients, I always say that I apologize in advance and say, “Listen, you’re going to hear me say we’re a lot different than other mediators way too many times. You’re going to think broken record this guy.” But, you know, having been mediating 17 years, you get into this place where you understand the pitfalls and the traps and how important the process is.

So one of the things that we do a lot differently is to your point, before we even get into anything, we do a one-hour strategy session where we say, “Okay, what are all the issues on the table? What are your grievances? What are your grievances? What do you want to work on? What do you want to work on? And what order do we want to work on these things?” So now I have buy-in right up front that says, “Look, here are all the things we’re going to cover.” And sometimes it gets a little heated, but I have the protection of this just being a strategy session and saying, “Listen, you might not think that, you know, your whatever XYZ is a problem, but if your soon-to-be ex does, then we need to talk about it.”

And I think by putting all those things out on the table, suddenly there’s no landmines that we’re stepping on. We all know what issues we’re going to be talking about. And at the end of the day, if you focus people on the interest-based negotiation rather than the positional like I win, you lose, that’s where you can really make some conversation happen.

And one of the things that often happens and you’ll smile at this and feel free, I have a rule. If I say something you like, you got to quote me on it three times, then after that it’s yours.

Jeremy: Oh, absolutely. Give me some one-liners. Doug takes all of his dad’s, so I’ll take some of yours.

Joe: There you go. So the phrase I say to clients, they go, “You know what, you guys? You’re in violent agreement.” And they stop and they look at you and they’re like, “What?” I’m like, “You are in violent agreement. You are so much in agreement, but because you’re just yelling at each other, you can’t see that you’re in agreement.” And then they stop and they go, “You, what do you want?” “Oh, well, I want to make sure our kid does well in school and isn’t overscheduled.” “You, what do you want?” “I want to make sure they get to a good college.” Well, how do they do that? By doing good in school. Well, how do they do that if they’re not overscheduled? Oh, and then there’s this moment where people are like, “Oh, yeah. Okay, so we’re both in agreement. They only play one sport.” Yes, you are.

And that happens, Jeremy, over and over and over. But it’s because when they’re yelling, you’re in violent agreement. And that’s where we try to get them to understand that when they do that, there’s usually that aha moment, we’re moving forward. They can sometimes get to that by themselves, but it’s that, like you said, that fleshing out up front and getting those things out on the table that I think really helps and brings them together to say we’re going to do this. This is what we are going to talk about. We collectively.

Jeremy: Yeah. And I think the art of that, I think there’s a book, Art of Negotiation, and just using that integrity side of life, being either in integrity, out of integrity. Like what does that truly mean? And just getting people to show up with that baseline. Because sometimes viewpoints are not in integrity. We might have some baggage. We’re human. We’re all human. We bring stuff around us. Sometimes you show up in ways like I didn’t think I could ever do that. That was not smart or I said something that I thought was funny, but it maybe offended someone. And now you feel out of integrity and maybe now you’re shaming yourself. There’s so many dynamics that come into your line of work that I can imagine that typically go back way in childhood for both those people.

What’s the hardest part of you doing this work? What do you find the most difficult?

The Personal Toll

Joe: Well, I think most difficult is, or personally most difficult is not carrying it with you after hours. As a human being and as an empath and as someone who is a peacemaker, I really have a difficult time when I’m sitting on the couch watching a baseball game just keeping my mind clear rather than man I can’t believe what happened today or oh boy there’s kids. You just know you don’t want this to be, especially when children are involved, you don’t want the specter of their parents’ divorce impacting them in the way it impacted me and it sounds like may have impacted you. Because as an adult it takes a very long time and a lot of work to undo that damage, but your parents don’t realize it at the time when they’re in the middle of their storm that it’s really, you know, it’s raining on you too and it’s raining big, man. Those drops get bigger.

Jeremy: And I’ll tell you what, I’m in that fight right now, within, not internally but I’m going through it like discovery of the reality of it. And actually, last night I get together a group of guys on Wednesday nights and it’s funny, man. They were pushing into this part of me because I was just like, man, I’m getting more curious about why certain things show up. And the curiosity has got me interested in like myself. And it wasn’t like I’m mad at myself, but I’m like I got certain things like I’m a judge. I’ve learned I judge and then when I judge, I become not clear with people because I’m probably judging them and I’m putting up a barrier that maybe potentially this isn’t safe.

So I’m just in this weird phase around that, but that all stemmed from me not feeling safe as a young child. So you’re right. And that’s what I was going to play back to. He’s like, man, all that stuff, I’m 43 years old, man. I’m still dealing with it because I hadn’t even discovered that side of me. And now I’m getting more clear. I’m laughing at it now. I’m like, “Okay, the other day I did something and I go, man, I’m sorry. Part of me, my false self is I’m a judge. Like I tend to do that and I think it was…” And then I was going through that last night just discovering why. What, where did that come from? And we’re digging in. I’m like, “Oh man, that makes a lot more sense.”

Yeah. So I just think that, you know, in terms of what you could see as a child, you’re right, those raindrops are bigger than you think. The storm is big and you can really transition someone’s life from a stability standpoint for what the child needs. So I can’t imagine sitting on the couch in your role and trying to absorb that at times, man. It’s got to be the hardest part.

Joe: It is. And you can’t, there’s a couple of sayings in our profession. Well, we have a lot in common even though I’m not a mental health professional, we have a lot in common with therapists, whereas the therapist and myself, we’re sitting on the outside observing this behavior and having been doing it so long, you watch the patterns. You know where this thing is going. The couple might not, but you know exactly where this train is going off the tracks. And it’s really hard in the therapist world, the phrase they use is you can’t get in the box.

So you have to visualize a couple as inside a box, standing in a box, and you’re outside the box. Like, as a mediator, you’re outside the box. But sometimes you want to just get in the box and shake people and just be like, “What are you doing?” You want to fix them. Like, we’re guys, “Let me fix you, dude. I know what’s wrong with you.”

Jeremy: I know, but they have to.

Joe: If they don’t make the fix, if they don’t make the solution, it’s not going to stick. Think about as a kid. When your parents told you what to do, you’re like, “Screw that. I’m doing the opposite.” But when you came up with the idea yourself, you’re more likely to adhere to it. And that’s ironic about mediation. You know, one of the things that you see statistically about mediation is that when you talk about a mediated divorce versus a litigated divorce, the adherence to the agreements is far higher. It’s like 20% for litigated versus 70% for mediated. Because it’s really hard as a person when you look at a person as a mediator and they say, “Well, this is unfair,” and you can look squarely at them and say, “Well, you developed this. You agreed to this. You negotiated this. So if it’s unfair, that’s on you.”

And people don’t like taking responsibility. They don’t, they want to blame. They want to point fingers. And like we were just talking about, it’s really hard to look at yourself. You don’t want to look at yourself in the mirror very much. And when you do, a lot of people don’t like what they see. So we try to get them to understand, this is on you, man.

Remember, at the end of the day, I say to them, I’m going to sleep at night, go on the pillow, I’ll think of you fondly, but 10 years from now, if you’re still bitching and moaning at each other, that’s ruining your life. It’s not impacting mine. So let’s do something now that can prevent that. And that helps also bring people together.

The Future of Mediation

Jeremy: And I think that dynamic in your space, just the ability to, you know, in the mediation ecosystem, and I think we’re going to go through a transition in our country. I think there’s a different perspective. I think people are, I’m hoping, going to lean more into their marriages with connection. I think we’re all getting more united. I have a feeling I can sense that just with what’s happening in Denver. I just feel like people are really pushing to get more connected again instead of being so distracted. But in the future of mediation, what do you see in the business side of this? I was thinking about this for you. I’m like, man, what’s AI going to do to this?

Joe: I think moving forward, one of the things that you learn, now I’m not an attorney as you know, my background, I’m a non-attorney mediator and you do not have to be a lawyer to be a mediator. Mediation is a skill in and of itself and quite frankly I have a lot of great friends who are attorneys. I have utmost respect for lawyers. Lawyers are advocates. They’re one-sided. They have to stick up for their client. Mediators are neutral. We stick up for everybody in terms of neutrality.

In terms of AI, in terms of these kinds of things, I think with the proper guidance that maybe not right now, but maybe five or 10 years from now, you’re going to be able to see systems that will be able to guide people through these negotiations, ask them those questions, help them evaluate those options. That’s what humans do well. Critical thinking. When we develop options, we throw a bunch of options on the table and I say, “Okay, let’s not choose what’s right or wrong. There’s no good or bad ideas here. They’re just ideas.” If we remove the emotion from the idea, it’s not a position, it’s just an idea. We look at each one. What’s the pro of this and the con of this? Now we weigh them. We go through a whole process. I think you’ll see as technology gets better at critical thinking, it’ll be able to help people evaluate that.

Where I do think you have difficulty, and this is just an entrenched issue, is the court systems are not exactly modern. They’re not built to be technologically adept or cutting edge. They still are upset if you staple something versus paperclip it. And you’re just like, really? This is why you’re going to reject this divorce because there’s a staple in it? Yes. That’s where we’re still at. Unfortunately, some states are better than others. Some lead, some follow.

If we can get past that part of the process and we can let people and empower them to make their own decisions and give them enough information, then I think we’ll be okay. But unfortunately, I think the legal profession is so entrenched in defending, protecting, advocating. You can’t compromise. You have to get X, Y, and Z. And most people are like, you know what? I’ll say to folks, okay, do you want to go to court over child support when you’ve got a 10-year-old, so you’re going to get child support for another eight years and you’re going to get another $10 a month. Do that math. That’s $120 a year times eight years. That’s about a thousand bucks. You’re going to spend $25,000 to $50,000. Or do you just take the loss and walk away? But no, we have to win.

So I think if we can get by that and technology because it’s passive. It doesn’t take a side. If you’ve ever used like Claude and it’s like that’s a great idea. You’re fantastic. You’re like yes I am.

Jeremy: I know. But dude I think you’re right. I think like you said something earlier that’s dear to kind of where I’m going on this, like taking ownership in yourself first and man if we as a country, if Jeremy can do this. I feel like that that is going to make a bigger impact around my circle. I’m responsible for myself and go through this thing like I’m trying to take a lot of ownership around me and that’s what I’m going through and I was like I statements like I can do this. And so now what I’m doing, I’m doing with my kids and I’m instilling in them the I statement like I walk through when they make a decision. It’s like is it me or is it you? Whose decision was that? Just so that we can start grooming this understanding that there’s reality around your decisions and it’s true and you’re responsible.

And it’s not everyone else’s fault. It’s not Macy’s fault that you went and bought a new dress. It’s not McDonald’s fault that you eat a hamburger. It’s none of that. It’s all, it starts within us. And we got to if we start pushing towards that, I think it’s just going to give us strength in our society that we desire. I desire anyways.

Advice for Those Getting Married

Jeremy: You know, I think as we wind this episode down, Joe, I got a couple quick questions for the viewers. If you were going to get married today, what would you tell those people that are going towards that? What would you want them to know?

Joe: Get a prenuptial agreement. That’d be number one. Believe it or not, you don’t have to be a millionaire to have a prenup. There’s a lot of stuff that we all carry into marriage, especially as we’re getting married later. Cheryl, my wife, and I, we got married later. Each of us owned a house. She had a business. We had things. We were older. We were 36 and 35.

And so as people get married older, you’ve probably achieved more, done more. But also, it can help in the more acrimonious times where if you have a prenup, even if it’s something as simple that says if, god forbid, we ever get divorced and we have children, we’re going to agree to a 50/50 parenting or we’re going to agree to use our state child support guideline. Really, just real generic stuff. I think that’s a big help.

And also along those lines, talk about money and money styles. I can tell you time and time again, there’s a lot of things that happen when people come into our office. There’s two things and they both revolve around money. One, different spending styles. There’s always a saver and a spender in a lot of relationships, and that creates friction. Number two, when you talk about family, one of my favorite lines I hear from people, not favorite because I like it, but favorite because I just know it’s coming. When you’ve got a couple where one spouse works outside the home and one spouse works inside the home, we want to make sure we’re careful about that. We don’t say you’re a stay-at-home mom or stay-at-home dad. You’re working. You’re raising these kids and changing those diapers. That’s way harder than the outside work.

And one of the spouses says, “Well, you get to stay home all day,” and the person is like, “Well, I didn’t want that. You know, you decided that I was going to stay home all day.” And that is another big conversation. What’s going to happen if we do have kids? I would say definitely do the very best you can to maintain your career, your independence and be your own person. And again because that’s financial independence, it’s social independence. It’s keeping your role. You went to college, you wanted to build a career, keep going at that. I see a lot of those things, if people fall apart on it, and it’s unfortunate because you had that talk, you could have avoided it.

Jeremy: The what I’m hearing from you is like the front end, the art of negotiation before you get married is so easy. It’s so much easier. I can, it’s like anything. It’s like in sales like just you close a deal. It’s easy to get the contractual stuff before. Once that contract and money exchanges hands if that contract is not clear, meaning that we both understand how we’re going to maintain integrity in this marriage or integrity for the, it’s “I never said that” or “that didn’t happen.” That’s what typically happens because potentially that person’s not showing up the way that they thought they were. Maybe they were that person that was in the closet hiding that didn’t want to show that skeleton in their closet and all of a sudden or something traumatic happens that stems something that was deep rooted and hidden. I mean there’s so many dynamics. So it’s easy to help on the front end from what I’m hearing.

Advice for Those Going Through Divorce

Jeremy: And then, more for the purpose of kind of your role and in your career, if someone’s going through a hard time right now that’s potentially leading to divorce, what’s something that would be really good for them to hear that you think that, you know, it doesn’t have to be the end of the road. It doesn’t have to be the end. It doesn’t have to be permanent. But what would be something that you would give them advice on? Because I personally see divorce is much harder than working at the marriage, but sometimes there’s things that are out of your control. But what’s one thing that you think people would want to hear that are going through this process? Either they’re just in the discovery phase, doing their due diligence, or in the middle of it, and they need help.

Joe: I’d say to them, this too shall pass. As terrible a time in your life this is, a low point, it’s a significant trauma. You have one life. You will get through this. Again, putting aside the emotion, you have an interest in moving forward. You have a life to live. You might have kids to take care of. You may meet someone new. This doesn’t have to define you. This is a point in your life. Yes, it’s a low point, but as cliche as it sounds, be glad you had this time.

It may be that you simply outgrew this person and you’re now going in different directions and now what a wonderful opportunity to rediscover yourself and perhaps to discover someone else who is on the same journey you are and will meet you in the place you currently are and then the two of you will carry forward. I don’t want to discount anyone’s divorce by any stretch, but I do want them to understand that they will get through it. They will survive. It is a traumatic event. There’s no question about it. But there is a lot of life ahead of you. There’s a nice bright horizon. It’s hard to see it in the clouds right now, but you will get there if you just just keep on moving forward.

Closing

Jeremy: Well, Joe, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Never in Reverse, being our first guest in this episode. Your perspective on navigating one of life’s most difficult moments is great. If you guys liked what you heard, you can follow Joe on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. He also has a website. Again, his business name is Equitable Mediation Services. I’m your host, Jeremy Axel. Never in Reverse. Always moving forward, guys. Please like, subscribe, PM us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, all the above. Until next time, Joe. Appreciate you, buddy. Have a good day.

Joe: Thanks, man. Have a good day. Take care, man. See you.

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In part two of our podcast, we discuss how quiet skills – neutrality, boundaries, and deep listening – turn high conflict standoffs into agreements people can live with, while discussing the real work I do every day to remain neutral.

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Disclaimer

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Anything discussed in this podcast should not be construed as legal, financial, or emotional advice. It is for informational purposes only. If you are in need of such advice you MUST seek the guidance of a qualified professional where you live.

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